Budget LVPO options?

[False Cast]

Based on my experience, and the experience of a few real-world hard use guys that I choose to trust, SWFA is in a field of their own when it comes to affordable optics. I’ve had fantastic luck with the SWFA 1-4x24 and the 1-6x24 HD as far as accurate and reliable adjustments (often overlooked) as well as zero retention (even more commonly overlooked). I’d personally not rely on anything else in the sub $ Nightforce realm. And in fact, I do not.

[Ironman8]

On that topic. I know the differences of FFP and SFP. For a newbie, would you go FFP or SFP. Im leaning Second, but no idea of the true benefits in real world application.

IMO, if the reticle is done right, FFP would be the way to go. That being said, there’s not very many FFP reticle designs on the market that truly work well on LPVOs, so SFP may be the better option. That’s just my opinion based on what I look for in a reticle.

[Ironman8]

Based on my experience, and the experience of a few real-world hard use guys that I choose to trust, SWFA is in a field of their own when it comes to affordable optics. I’ve had fantastic luck with the SWFA 1-4x24 and the 1-6x24 HD as far as accurate and reliable adjustments (often overlooked) as well as zero retention (even more commonly overlooked). I’d personally not rely on anything else in the sub $ Nightforce realm. And in fact, I do not.

I’ve got the SWFA 1-6 and love the reticle design. This is one of the better FFP designs IMO. Seems bombproof and has pretty good glass from what I can tell. Just a tad heavy would be my only mark against it. I would consider it one of the best values out there based on my experience and from what I’ve heard of them being used overseas. Surprised they don’t get talked about more, honestly.

I even had Steve Fisher look through it and he commented that the glass looked good and had a decent eye box. He did say that he thought the reticle was too busy, but I think he prefers a dot style reticle. His positive remarks were interesting being that he usually uses Kahles and Nightforce class scopes.

I’m waiting on delivery of a Khales K16i to compare it to. Really interested to see how it stacks up.

[HeruMew]

IMO, if the reticle is done right, FFP would be the way to go. That being said, there’s not very many FFP reticle designs on the market that truly work well on LPVOs, so SFP may be the better option. That’s just my opinion based on what I look for in a reticle.

Thanks for the input. I will make sure to get some opines on some scopes before pulling the trigger to get some anecdotal evidence.

I like the idea of a "red dot" at 1x and a reticle at 4-6x; but the quick BDC of such like, an ACSS, does have it's perks when looking at the SFP model.

[MStarmer]

Well having both a First and Second focal plane scope now to play with I'll give my opinion. I've been running a H1 (4moa) for a super long time and was happy with it. But as I creep up on 50 I wanted something with a little magnification. The 4moa dot was good close in, but it's an 8" dot at 200 so I never felt like I got the most out of the rifle.

My first choice was the FFP Primary Arms Raptor 1-6 with the ACSS reticle. Very nice scope, especially for the money ($399). For the reticle changing size is a little goofy as I'm not used to FFP scope. But for using as intended to range, bdc and wind I think it's a great choice. The reticle is pretty small at 1X but can be used as a red dot but not super bright. I shot it out to 300 and it was pretty spot on for holds with my 16" gun.

My second choice (after a little buyers remorse of really wanting a Vortex Razor) I ended up ordering a Viper PST Gen II 1-6 MRAD. Looking side by side at a local shop they are soooo close in clarity and brightness. Yes the Razor is a better scope but I'm not sure it's $650 better than the Viper. I snagged one from Optics planet for just a touch over $500. The dot is super bright, easily used as a red dot close in, the reticle isn't as fancy as the ACSS but the first and second mil should be close to 300 and 400 based on a ballistic calculator. I like the fact that it has great turrets under caps and off settings in between each illum setting. Plus using them side by side I like the reticle consistent, especially since I'm really not ranging anything with this power scope anyway. 300-400 max for me at the most.

So for my personal preferences which was mainly looking to replace my red dot, I think the Vortex is the clear winner. I agree with above, in a higher power option where you're ranging something then FFP is probably the way to go.

[HeruMew]

Well having both a First and Second focal plane scope now to play with I'll give my opinion. I've been running a H1 (4moa) for a super long time and was happy with it. But as I creep up on 50 I wanted something with a little magnification. The 4moa dot was good close in, but it's an 8" dot at 200 so I never felt like I got the most out of the rifle.

My first choice was the FFP Primary Arms Raptor 1-6 with the ACSS reticle. Very nice scope, especially for the money ($399). For the reticle changing size is a little goofy as I'm not used to FFP scope. But for using as intended to range, bdc and wind I think it's a great choice. The reticle is pretty small at 1X but can be used as a red dot but not super bright. I shot it out to 300 and it was pretty spot on for holds with my 16" gun.

My second choice (after a little buyers remorse of really wanting a Vortex Razor) I ended up ordering a Viper PST Gen II 1-6 MRAD. Looking side by side at a local shop they are soooo close in clarity and brightness. Yes the Razor is a better scope but I'm not sure it's $650 better than the Viper. I snagged one from Optics planet for just a touch over $500. The dot is super bright, easily used as a red dot close in, the reticle isn't as fancy as the ACSS but the first and second mil should be close to 300 and 400 based on a ballistic calculator. I like the fact that it has great turrets under caps and off settings in between each illum setting. Plus using them side by side I like the reticle consistent, especially since I'm really not ranging anything with this power scope anyway. 300-400 max for me at the most.

So for my personal preferences which was mainly looking to replace my red dot, I think the Vortex is the clear winner. I agree with above, in a higher power option where you're ranging something then FFP is probably the way to go.

Awesome insight, it's this exact type of rhetoric I was looking for.

Gotta say, you've been very very helpful in this thread. Your experience is greatly appreciated.

[PatEgan]

My second choice (after a little buyers remorse of really wanting a Vortex Razor) I ended up ordering a Viper PST Gen II 1-6 MRAD. Looking side by side at a local shop they are soooo close in clarity and brightness. Yes the Razor is a better scope but I'm not sure it's $650 better than the Viper. I snagged one from Optics planet for just a touch over $500. The dot is super bright, easily used as a red dot close in, the reticle isn't as fancy as the ACSS but the first and second mil should be close to 300 and 400 based on a ballistic calculator. I like the fact that it has great turrets under caps and off settings in between each illum setting. Plus using them side by side I like the reticle consistent, especially since I'm really not ranging anything with this power scope anyway. 300-400 max for me at the most.

MStarmer,
I don't want to derail the OP's trajectory at this point in the thread, but does the Viper PST have similar edge-to-edge clarity to the Razor? There are no stores near me that carry a good enough variety of Vortex scopes for me to compare, and I'm going back and forth trying to decide on the Razor vs. the Viper.

[MStarmer]

I would say they are very close. Most reviews seem to put the viper at 80% of what the Razor is at less than half the price. I'm not a competitor or anyone of enough skill to really justify that extra amount, especially on a low power scope that's going to rarely be touched after initially zeroing it. If we were talking some super high power glass and turrets that would be constantly be dialing in for range then it's a different game.

[PatEgan]

Fair enough, thanks for the info-
Pat

[Vegasshooter]

Man, the LPV game is one area where you truly get what you pay for! Potentially more than most other things in the gun world.

My background, just so you’ll understand where I’m coming from, is in LEO Training. I am a full time instructor at a very large Sheriff’s department. About two years ago, we got very serious about getting LPV’s on our Officer’s rifles. We have approximately 1500 rifle carriers on the dept, so we are not little. In preparation for what optics we were going to approve, we (instructor staff) started buying, begging, collecting, and T&Eing anything we could get our hands on. I have had time on almost every LPV on the market, and go to SHOT every year. Another benefit of being an Officer in Las Vegas. I have literally watched the market explode over the last couple years in LPV’s.

I will offer my opinion, for what it’s worth. But understand, I’m looking at it as a duty grade, lives at risk proposition. First off: GET THE BEST YOU CAN AFFORD. It will pay dividends in the end, and greatly cut down on your disappointment. Bad optics (think Millet, Super Sniper etc) will give you a headache, and cause eye strain. You will come away with a bad taste for LPV’s, and it won’t be wrong, it will be preventable. The Vortex Razor was IMO, the king of the hill until recently. It was the best glass, fov, good reticle, best cost in the upper end category. Yes, the Kahles was better glass, but it was more $$, and harder to get ahold of, and didn’t offer enough more that most guys could justify it. I think the new NF options are the newest, BEST there is. They are lighter, have FANTASTIC brightness, excellent reticles, are FFP in a Reticle that’s designed to be a good FFP, and don’t have a huge footprint on the gun. They are seriously the best out there currently. Downside is cost. They aren’t cheap, but the quality is insane. Watch the NF torture test. Aaron at Sage Dynamics threw his NX8 off a two story building then shot it at 100 yds. No loss of zero. However, these scopes are absolutely geared towards the military/LEO market, guys that are very hard on equipment, but it HAS to work.
Next option is the Primary arms Platinum series. Made by LOW in Japan. Same company that makes Vortex Razor, several NF scopes, and Leupold MK6 and MK8. Excellent glass, fantastic reticles, really top shell optics. More affordable than the NF, and probably 80% as good. Really worth a look. Next would be the Primary Arms non Platinum line. We’ve had them, really shot them....a bunch. Never had one fail. Same awesome reticles. All in all, I think this is where most guys should be looking. Very affordable, but some excellent offerings.
The Vortex Strike Buzzard.....I mean Eagle. No, just no. Only scope we’ve seen fail. And not just one......FOUR of them. When you look at the numbers that Vortex sells, the failure rate probably isn’t that high.....until it’s on your gun when it does. Sure, “The Warranty”..... I know, but that does you no good when you’re out hunting, competing in a match, or just enjoying an afternoon with your wife and kids. The best warranty is one you never use. I’m not a Vortex hater AT ALL. I had a Razor 1-6 for years. Still have a Razor sporting scope. I feel like Vortex should be two companies, one is the Razor, below that is everything else. It’s that bad.

So, these are my ramblings. If you have any questions about specific optics, hit me up, chances are very good I have been behind it. I am currently running a NF ATACR 1-8, a NF NX8 1-8, and a Primary Arms Platinum 1-8. You can see where my opinions translate to my wallet. But, when I’m working an overwatch assignment where I’m responsible for crowd protection and my rifle HAS to work, NightForce.