9mm Subgun Viable for Home Defense?

[Nanuk]

Unless you really muck with the variable to favor the pistol, that's a general truth. I don't think anyone claimed it was true under all circumstances regardless of barrel length and or ammo used.

No. I provided muzzle energy figures. Some of the "variables" that influence bullet performance are Muzzle Energy, momentum, sectional density and bullet construction. No one has disputed the facts. Muzzle energy is the ability to do work. How can two bullets with similar M.E. that shed said energy in the target perform totally differently?

If I really wanted to be a jerk I would make one in 357 Sig. The loads I use (Underwood) run 1600 fps from my Glock.

General truth? Is that like Oxymoron?

There have been thousands of people shot with the 5.56 that did not go down with the first or even 3rd hit. One can surmise that the 5.56 sucks. The 5.56 is not magic.

[WillBrink]

No. I provided muzzle energy figures. Some of the "variables" that influence bullet performance are Muzzle Energy, momentum, sectional density and bullet construction. No one has disputed the facts. Muzzle energy is the ability to do work. How can two bullets with similar M.E. that shed said energy in the target perform totally differently?

If I really wanted to be a jerk I would make one in 357 Sig. The loads I use (Underwood) run 1600 fps from my Glock.

General truth? Is that like Oxymoron?

There have been thousands of people shot with the 5.56 that did not go down with the first or even 3rd hit. One can surmise that the 5.56 sucks. The 5.56 is not magic.

But a pistol caliber from a sub gun is... Ok. This thread has gone in utterly unproductive directions.

[WillBrink]

No. I provided muzzle energy figures. Some of the "variables" that influence bullet performance are Muzzle Energy, momentum, sectional density and bullet construction. No one has disputed the facts. Muzzle energy is the ability to do work. How can two bullets with similar M.E. that shed said energy in the target perform totally differently?

If I really wanted to be a jerk I would make one in 357 Sig. The loads I use (Underwood) run 1600 fps from my Glock.

General truth? Is that like Oxymoron?

There have been thousands of people shot with the 5.56 that did not go down with the first or even 3rd hit. One can surmise that the 5.56 sucks. The 5.56 is not magic.

double tap.

[1168]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OkUm7iegNbM

Look to the hot 10mm for what a 40 will do out of a longer barrel. It is not rocket science.

With 180 grain factory loads tested by Ballistics By The Inch (BBTI) there is a nearly 400 fps spread between .40 and 10mm in a 16” tube. 360 fps difference in 10” barrels.

So, going from 3400 fps to 2000 fps losing 10" of barrel its still a 22 caliber rifle round vs a 40 caliber pistol round, sure thing.

SNIP Do some research. SNIP.

Where are these numbers coming from? Cite your sources, please. You clearly didn’t watch the video I posted here comparing rifle and pistol wounding.

20” Fusion MSR 2867 fps
10.5” Fusion MSR 2530 fps
20” Black Hills 77 OTM 2650 fps
10.5” Black Hills OTM 2440 fps

11” Cor-Bon 165gr .40 1350 fps

My sources are Molon on M4c, SOFREP, and BBTI.

As for me needing to do research, I have. It is my job to be familiar with wounding mechanisms, and I also teach on the subject of intentional trauma/battlefield trauma to limited audiences of military healthcare providers. I am credentialed in most of the trauma courses available, and have first hand experience on the battlefield, and the streets. There are certainly lots of people more educated than I, but I try to stay current. If you have any materials you might reasonably expect me to not be aware of, point me to them so that I may educate myself. I’m always open to learning more.

[Nanuk]

Ok guys you win. I admit I was wrong. Pistols calibers in any configuration are less powerful than rifle calibers in any configuration. I should have never allowed myself to be sucked into that rabbit hole.

I do however feel that the pistol caliber carbine or AR pistol in a pistol caliber is a very viable weapon for home defense and basic self defense. Properly configured the AR pistol is reasonable powerful (600+ FPE). They use excellent bullets, they are relatively quiet when compared to similar rifles. They have no muzzle flash. They cycle way faster than a comparable AR in 5.56 allowing for faster multiple hits on target.

[1168]

I do however feel that the pistol caliber carbine or AR pistol in a pistol caliber is a very viable weapon for home defense and basic self defense.

On this we can agree.

[MegademiC]

Did you read what I posted? I am using contract ammo, 155 grain JHP's @ 1200 FPS from a 4.5" BBL. If I really wanted to play I would get some 135 Grain Underwood. I am not trying to start a fight here. I am saying that a 155 grain 40 caliber HST @ 1300 FPS is better than a 22 caliber rifle bullet @ 2000 FPS for Self Defense. I may be wrong, but I don't think I am that wrong. All you guys are looking at is jello and numbers on paper. I have seen real people shot. Yes the 5.56 from a carbine within 75 yards is devastating, from an 8" BBL you get what 1/2 the velocity? The rifle bullet NEEDS velocity.

If you look at the pic I posted, the 50gr tsx is going 2500fps out if a 8” barrel. The round does not go 5kfps out of any barrel, so no- its not half. Dont change the argument. I dont see 155gr hst on Docs approved list.

[WillBrink]

Ok guys you win. I admit I was wrong. Pistols calibers in any configuration are less powerful than rifle calibers in any configuration. I should have never allowed myself to be sucked into that rabbit hole.

I do however feel that the pistol caliber carbine or AR pistol in a pistol caliber is a very viable weapon for home defense and basic self defense. Properly configured the AR pistol is reasonable powerful (600+ FPE). They use excellent bullets, they are relatively quiet when compared to similar rifles. They have no muzzle flash. They cycle way faster than a comparable AR in 5.56 allowing for faster multiple hits on target.

And no place, did anyone say otherwise in this thread. Viable, of course. Really seems like you had jumped into the thread without reading it fully assuming it was claimed a sub gun was not a viable option.

[Nanuk]

If you look at the pic I posted, the 50gr tsx is going 2500fps out if a 8” barrel. The round does not go 5kfps out of any barrel, so no- its not half. Dont change the argument. I dont see 155gr hst on Docs approved list.

I don't care who's list its on. I do not believe it is in current production. I don't worship jello.

[Wake27]

I don't care who's list its on.

Yeah I know more than one of the country’s (world’s?) foremost ballistic experts too.


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