Home Defense Ballistics

[butlers]

All,

Multi-part ballistics questions (and hopefully, discussion):

**********

QUESTION #1

Are my numbers/categories generally correct?

Super Low Weight (<25 gr), Low Velocity (~1000 ft/s):
individual pellet of #4 Birdshot (~3 gr, ~1250 ft/s)
individual pellet of #4 Buck (~20 gr, ~1250 ft/s)

Super Low Weight (<25 gr), Medium Velocity (~2000 ft/s):
.17 HMR (17 gr, ~2500 ft/s)
5.7x28mm (31 gr, ~2300 ft/s)

Super Low Weight (<25 gr), High Velocity (~3000 ft/s):
.17 Hornet (25 gr, ~3000 ft/s)
.17 Winchester Super Magnum (25 gr, ~2600 ft/s)

Super Low Weight (<25 gr), Super High Velocity (~4000 ft/s):
.17 Remington (25 gr, ~4000 ft/s)

Low Weight (~50 gr), Low Velocity (~1000 ft/s):
individual pellet of 00 Buck (~60 gr, ~1200 ft/s)
.22 LR (40 gr, ~1200 ft/s)

Low Weight (~50 gr), Medium Velocity (~2000 ft/s):
.22 WMR (40 gr, ~2000 ft/s)

Low Weight (~50 gr), High Velocity (~3000 ft/s):
.22 Hornet (40 gr, ~2800 ft/s)
.223/5.56x45mm (55 gr, ~3200 ft/s)
5.45x39mm (60 gr, ~2900 ft/s)
.243 Winchester (75 gr, ~3400 ft/s)

Low Weight (~50 gr), Super High Velocity (~4000 ft/s):
.204 Ruger (40 gr, ~3900 ft/s)
.223 WSSM (55 gr, ~3800 ft/s)
.243 WSSM (55 gr, ~4000 ft/s)

Medium Weight (~100 gr), Low Velocity (~1000 ft/s):
.380 ACP (95 gr, ~1000 ft/s)
.38 spl (115gr, ~1000 ft/s)
9x19mm (115 gr, ~1200 ft/s)

Medium Weight (~100 gr), Medium Velocity (~2000 ft/s):
.30 Carbine (~110 gr, ~2000 ft/s)
7.62x39mm (122 gr, ~2300 ft/s)
.300 Blackout (125 gr, ~2200 ft/s)

Medium Weight (~100 gr), High Velocity (~3000 ft/s):
.25 WSSM (115gr, ~3000 ft/s)
.25-06 (115gr, ~3000 ft/s)
6.5mm Grendel (123 gr, ~2600 ft/s)
6.8 SPC (110gr, ~2600 ft/s)
.30 Remington (125 gr, ~2800 ft/s)
.270 Winchester (130 gr, ~3000 ft/s)

Medium Weight (~100 gr), Super High Velocity (~4000 ft/s):
None?

High Weight (~150 gr), Low Velocity (~1000 ft/s):
.357 magnum (158 gr, ~1250 ft/s)
.40SW (165 gr, ~1000 ft/s)
10mm Auto (180 gr, ~1300 ft/s)
.45 ACP (230 gr, ~800 ft/s)
.44 Magnum (~240 gr, ~1400 ft/s)

High Weight (~150 gr), Medium Velocity (~2000 ft/s):
None?

High Weight (~150 gr), High Velocity (~3000 ft/s):
.300 Savage (150 gr, ~2700 ft/s)
.300 OSSM (150 gr, ~3000 ft/s)
.308/7.62x51mm (147 gr, ~2700 ft/s)
.30-06/7.62x63mm (150 gr, ~2900 ft/s)
.300 Win Mag (180 gr, ~3000 ft/s)

High Weight (~150 gr), Super High Velocity (~4000 ft/s):
None?

Super High Weight (>250 gr), Low Velocity (~1000 ft/s):
.454 Casull (400 gr, ~1400 ft/s)

Super High Weight (>250 gr), Medium Velocity (~2000 ft/s):
12 gauge slug (300 gr, ~2000 ft/s)
.450 Bushmaster (250 gr, ~2200 ft/s)
.458 SOCOM (300 gr, ~1900 ft/s)
.50 Beowulf (325 gr, ~2000 ft/s)
.45-70 (300 gr, ~2000 ft/s)
.50-90 Sharps (440 gr, ~1800 ft/s)

Super High Weight (>250 gr), High Velocity (~3000 ft/s):
.50 BMG (700 gr, ~3000 ft/s)

Super High Weight (>250 gr), Super High Velocity (~4000 ft/s):
OK, we're getting into GAU-8/A Avenger territory here....

**********

QUESTION #2

So if I want a light bullet (less than 65 grains) that travels very fast (2000 ft/s and up) to use for home defense -- and that won't break my budget -- what are my options?

Too light?
.17 HMR (17 gr, ~2500 ft/s)
.17 Winchester Super Magnum (25 gr, ~2600 ft/s)
5.7x28mm (31 gr, ~2300 ft/s)
.22 WMR (40 gr, ~2000 ft/s)

Bordering on too heavy?
.243 Winchester (75 gr, ~3400 ft/s)

Too expensive/hard to find?
.17 Remington (25 gr, ~4000 ft/s)
.17 Hornet (25 gr, ~3000 ft/s)
.22 Hornet (40 gr, ~2800 ft/s)
.204 Ruger (40 gr, ~3900 ft/s)
.223 WSSM (55 gr, ~3800 ft/s)
.243 WSSM (55 gr, ~4000 ft/s)

Just right?
.223/5.56x45mm (55 gr, ~3200 ft/s)
5.45x39mm (60 gr, ~2900 ft/s)

I don't want to get into a caliber war. I'm genuinely trying to understand what else is out there that mimics .223/5.56x45mm performance -- light (but not too light) and very fast.

Respectfully,
butlers

[HeruMew]

Looks like you came to the same conclusion I did:
5.45x39.

But, I do want to ask, and I don't mean this in a slight: If you're looking to "Mimic .223/5.56" why not just use .223/5.56?

Having fired a 74, it was amazing.

Now, would I chose anything on that list over a reliable AR? I dunno.

I know you're trying to see what else is out there, but it's pretty limited without getting into the "too expensive" region.

A general rule (in my eyes) is a balance of control-ability and permanent cavity.

Overall, home defense is much more than weapon selection. It's far more tactics and preparation than it is needing the firearm; though, that certainly is a core component.

[butlers]

But, I do want to ask, and I don't mean this in a slight: If you're looking to "Mimic .223/5.56" why not just use .223/5.56?

Nono, I agree with you. My home-defense setup is an AR-15. The ammo is cheap, reliable, and plentiful; I'm happy with the way it performs.

But you know how it is...getting restless, wondering what else is out there. I suppose I should:

[HeruMew]

Nono, I agree with you. My home-defense setup is an AR-15. The ammo is cheap, reliable, and plentiful; I'm happy with the way it performs.

But you know how it is...getting restless, wondering what else is out there. I suppose I should:
[/IMG]

As someone who's built out a 7.62x39 Piston Upper, I know exactly what you mean. Honestly, I hoped to ask it politely before someone demands an explanation for such.

Nonetheless, 5.45 really is very similar. Even in performance, it sounds like. I never was hitting gel with the model I got to use, but boy was it light recoiling and an overall fun round to shoot. Just like the 5.56.

[vicious_cb]

90% of the things you listed should NEVER be used in a home defense role, either because of the caliber or the platform its shot out of is not a suitable home defense weapon.

[223to45]

Are you stuck to with really light weight bullets??

A 300 Blk 110 Vmax can be push close to 2500 fps. Or a 110 Barnes TAC at 2300 fps.

Either one will F shit up.


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[C-grunt]

Just to complete your list:

Medium weight and super high velocity you have some light weight 270 and 300 Win that are getting up there.

High weight and high velocity you have the good old 30-30

High weight and super high velocity you have some of the big magnums like Weatherby.

[butlers]

Are you stuck to with really light weight bullets?? A 300 Blk 110 Vmax can be push close to 2500 fps. Or a 110 Barnes TAC at 2300 fps.

Yes, I'm limiting myself to small and fast bullets. I think it's been well-established that 223/5.56x45 is ideal for an urban environment. That makes intuitive sense when you look at Delta/CAG, DEVGRU, HRT, etc. I'm not talking about Soldiers/Marines who have to be able to do both indoor (clearing houses) and outdoor (engaging targets far away) work; I'm talking about Tier 1 SOF badasses whose sole purpose in life is to shoot terrorists in the face across the length of a room (and not hit hostages tied up behind the wall). They do what they do primarily with modern carbines, not pistol-caliber SMGs nor shotguns.

But you don't have to listen to me:

US Army Sergeant Major Lamb (former Delta/CAG): "Statements are made that the shotgun or pistol should be used because of the over-penetration problem with 5.56 carbine ammunition. This could not be further from the truth. If you conduct a little research you will find that numerous law enforcement departments, to include the FBI, have proven this to be false in most cases. The fact of the matter is that many of these bullets will penetrate numerous walls, but standard 5.56 loadings are the least of your worries when compared to pistol and shotgun fodder, which continue to take top honors in the category of over-penetration."
https://www.americanrifleman.org/art...xperts-opinion

Old_Painless (certified Pistol, Rifle, Shotgun, Personal Firearms Defense, and Home Firearms Safety Instructor): "Common pistol rounds easily penetrated all 4 walls spaced out at room distances. This is a critical issue. Think about the inside of your house and imagine if you shot through 4 walls. Could you hit a loved one? Know your target and what is behind it....The 5.56 rounds deviated greatly from the original flight path once they started tumbling. This occurred after the second wall."
http://www.theboxotruth.com/the-box-...sulated-walls/

James Tarr (former police officer; contributing editor for Guns and Ammo): "Proponents of the pistol for home defense like to think that because it’s 'just' a pistol round, overpenetration really won’t be an issue. Such is not the case. Drywall sheets and hollow-core doors (which are what you’ll find in the majority of homes and apartments in this country) offer almost no resistance to bullets....For years many people just assumed they knew what would happen to a rifle bullet fired indoors—it would go through every wall available and then exit the building. While armor-piercing and FMJ ammunition is specifically designed to do this, extensive testing has shown that light, extremely fast-moving .223 projectiles (including FMJs) often fragment when they hit a barrier as soft as thin plywood."
http://www.gunsandammo.com/ammo/long...fense-caliber/

Tiger McKee (adjunct instructor at Thunder Ranch): "The .223/5.56 is moving at around 3,000 feet per second, and while it isn’t magic bullet, it’s a far cry better than any pistol round. Another advantage of the .223/5.56 is its limited penetration. The shape and velocity of the round cause it to immediately expend or dissipate its energy once it strikes something."
https://gundigest.com/reviews/ar-15-...e-defense-guns

Tom McHale (contributor at AmmoLand and OutdoorHub): "The pistol rounds were seemingly unaffected by the drywall and/or wood barriers. There was no observable deviation or fragmentation of the 9mm projectiles. You’d be safe counting on a pistol round to keep going, and going, and going. After all, premium pistol ammunition is designed to expand, and lose energy, when striking liquid-based targets—not walls. The full metal jacket .223 rounds tended to tumble rather than break apart when they encountered barriers."
http://www.outdoorhub.com/stories/20...ration-issues/

Caleb Lee (NRA Certified Basic Pistol & Personal Protection Inside The Home Instructor): "FBI and Independent Testing Has Consistently Shown .223/5.56 NATO Fired From AR-15’s Do Not Over Penetrate More Than Pistol/Shotgun."
http://preparedgunowners.com/2016/07...ation-testing/

Dr. Gary Williams (ballistics expert): "Since all of the 5.56 mm/.223 bullets fired through the interior wall had significantly less penetration than 9 mm, .40 S&W, .45 ACP, and 12 ga. shotgun projectiles which were fired through an interior wall, stray 5.56 mm/.223 bullets seem to offer a reduced risk of injuring innocent bystanders and an inherent reduced risk of civil litigation in situations where bullets miss their intended target and enter or exit structures. As such, 5.56mm/.223 caliber weapons may be safer to use in CQB situations and crowded urban environments than service caliber handguns or 12 ga. weapons."
http://www.recoilweb.com/ar-vs-shotg...f-2-39203.html

[223to45]

Don't worry I am fully aware of the benefits of 5.56, and down falls of pistol rounds.

Yes, I'm limiting myself to small and fast bullets. I think it's been well-established that 223/5.56x45 is ideal for an urban environment. That makes intuitive sense when you look at Delta/CAG, DEVGRU, HRT, etc. I'm not talking about Soldiers/Marines who have to be able to do both indoor (clearing houses) and outdoor (engaging targets far away) work; I'm talking about Tier 1 SOF badasses whose sole purpose in life is to shoot terrorists in the face across the length of a room (and not hit hostages tied up behind the wall). They do what they do primarily with modern carbines, not pistol-caliber SMGs nor shotguns.

But you don't have to listen to me:

US Army Sergeant Major Lamb (former Delta/CAG): "Statements are made that the shotgun or pistol should be used because of the over-penetration problem with 5.56 carbine ammunition. This could not be further from the truth. If you conduct a little research you will find that numerous law enforcement departments, to include the FBI, have proven this to be false in most cases. The fact of the matter is that many of these bullets will penetrate numerous walls, but standard 5.56 loadings are the least of your worries when compared to pistol and shotgun fodder, which continue to take top honors in the category of over-penetration."
https://www.americanrifleman.org/art...xperts-opinion

Old_Painless (certified Pistol, Rifle, Shotgun, Personal Firearms Defense, and Home Firearms Safety Instructor): "Common pistol rounds easily penetrated all 4 walls spaced out at room distances. This is a critical issue. Think about the inside of your house and imagine if you shot through 4 walls. Could you hit a loved one? Know your target and what is behind it....The 5.56 rounds deviated greatly from the original flight path once they started tumbling. This occurred after the second wall."
http://www.theboxotruth.com/the-box-...sulated-walls/

James Tarr (former police officer; contributing editor for Guns and Ammo): "Proponents of the pistol for home defense like to think that because it’s 'just' a pistol round, overpenetration really won’t be an issue. Such is not the case. Drywall sheets and hollow-core doors (which are what you’ll find in the majority of homes and apartments in this country) offer almost no resistance to bullets....For years many people just assumed they knew what would happen to a rifle bullet fired indoors—it would go through every wall available and then exit the building. While armor-piercing and FMJ ammunition is specifically designed to do this, extensive testing has shown that light, extremely fast-moving .223 projectiles (including FMJs) often fragment when they hit a barrier as soft as thin plywood."
http://www.gunsandammo.com/ammo/long...fense-caliber/

Tiger McKee (adjunct instructor at Thunder Ranch): "The .223/5.56 is moving at around 3,000 feet per second, and while it isn’t magic bullet, it’s a far cry better than any pistol round. Another advantage of the .223/5.56 is its limited penetration. The shape and velocity of the round cause it to immediately expend or dissipate its energy once it strikes something."
https://gundigest.com/reviews/ar-15-...e-defense-guns

Tom McHale (contributor at AmmoLand and OutdoorHub): "The pistol rounds were seemingly unaffected by the drywall and/or wood barriers. There was no observable deviation or fragmentation of the 9mm projectiles. You’d be safe counting on a pistol round to keep going, and going, and going. After all, premium pistol ammunition is designed to expand, and lose energy, when striking liquid-based targets—not walls. The full metal jacket .223 rounds tended to tumble rather than break apart when they encountered barriers."
http://www.outdoorhub.com/stories/20...ration-issues/

Caleb Lee (NRA Certified Basic Pistol & Personal Protection Inside The Home Instructor): "FBI and Independent Testing Has Consistently Shown .223/5.56 NATO Fired From AR-15’s Do Not Over Penetrate More Than Pistol/Shotgun."
http://preparedgunowners.com/2016/07...ation-testing/

Dr. Gary Williams (ballistics expert): "Since all of the 5.56 mm/.223 bullets fired through the interior wall had significantly less penetration than 9 mm, .40 S&W, .45 ACP, and 12 ga. shotgun projectiles which were fired through an interior wall, stray 5.56 mm/.223 bullets seem to offer a reduced risk of injuring innocent bystanders and an inherent reduced risk of civil litigation in situations where bullets miss their intended target and enter or exit structures. As such, 5.56mm/.223 caliber weapons may be safer to use in CQB situations and crowded urban environments than service caliber handguns or 12 ga. weapons."
http://www.recoilweb.com/ar-vs-shotg...f-2-39203.html

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[vicious_cb]

This nothing magical about a bullet being light and fast that makes it a good performer. Even in .223/5.56 the heavy OTMs in the 77/75gr range far out perform the lightweight FMJ offerings even when they significantly slower. Bullet construction far outweighs velocity and weight when you are talking terminal ballistics.