Mk262 - 18” vs 20”

[Tx_Aggie]

That is really not the case. There is a great deal of variability in the steel quality, and the making of a great barrel begins with the steel supplier, then continues to the barrel driller or blank manufacturer and then to reamer (chamberer) and lathe shop. Each step has its degree of variability and differences. Douglas is not typically known as the best of the best, but they are darn good, and it just so happens, that empirical evidences suggests that 18" stainless barrels do better from Douglas than other shops. I am not smart enough to know what is different, but many hypothesize that it is the underlying steel alloy. It is possible that it is something else, but I cannot imagine what if might be, if not the metal itself.

Either way, this is after 2,000 to 6,000 rounds of firing, so it could very well be a discussion of how many angels can dance on the head of a pin, for most recreational shooters.

I would love to see some of the empirical evidence you keep referring to in respect to Douglas SPR barrels being superior to the same barrel made from the same (or even a theoretically superior material such as 416R) by another manufacturer.

I'm not knocking Douglas barrels (they are no doubt accurate) but the idea that they are claiming their barrels are made from 416 while secretly using some undisclosed superior alloy (but only in the 18" SPR barrels?) seems ridiculous.

[Fluke]

There is an important advantage to the 20" for a hunting platform. I use 20" pencil barrels for my coyote rigs. With just a thread protector there is no need for hearing protection with these longer barrels.

[MegademiC]

I would love to see some of the empirical evidence you keep referring to in respect to Douglas SPR barrels being superior to the same barrel made from the same (or even a theoretically superior material such as 416R) by another manufacturer.

I'm not knocking Douglas barrels (they are no doubt accurate) but the idea that they are claiming their barrels are made from 416 while secretly using some undisclosed superior alloy (but only in the 18" SPR barrels?) seems ridiculous.

Steel grade dictates the chemistry. There can only be so much variability within those specs. One manufacture could run the Cr or other chemistries on one end or the other, but tou wont see drastic differences IMO. Disclaimer, my steel working knowledge is not with stainless.

It would be interesting to see what the actuall differences were, if any.

There is an important advantage to the 20" for a hunting platform. I use 20" pencil barrels for my coyote rigs. With just a thread protector there is no need for hearing protection with these longer barrels.

A 20” can still damage your hearing.

[longshot2000]

I would love to see some of the empirical evidence you keep referring to in respect to Douglas SPR barrels being superior to the same barrel made from the same (or even a theoretically superior material such as 416R) by another manufacturer.

I'm not knocking Douglas barrels (they are no doubt accurate) but the idea that they are claiming their barrels are made from 416 while secretly using some undisclosed superior alloy (but only in the 18" SPR barrels?) seems ridiculous.

It is not a Douglas claim, this is independent research. Sorry if I led you to believe that Douglas was pushing this story. It came from some work that Frank White at Compass Lake was doing, and he showed me the various barrels that he got in for repair, and I have seen cross-sections of the port erosion. I suppose it is possible that the spin of the rifling causes some turbulence in one barrel and not the other. I would say that neither Frank, nor I, know why this is happening. The hypothesis is that it is in the stainless composition, but maybe there is another reason. That is why I refer to this as empirical, or after the fact, evidence. Almost universally, the 18" barrels were showing progressive port erosion and the 20" barrels of similar age showed very little. The outlier was Douglas in 18."

But, I do know that just because a stainless is called 416, that does not mean they are all the same composition, or the same strength, etc. Aside from the fact that there is 416 and 416R, there are variations in chemistry, and even more variations in preparation, rolling, forging, heat, cold, etc. that is done to the steel before, and sometimes after, it gets to the barrel blank shop.

Anyway, I am sure that most 18" barrels will do fine for most recreational shooters.

[Jsp10477]

After talking to Frank about this, I wondered how one of my 18” rifle gassed melonited 4150 barrels was holding up so I had a friend bore scope it. This barrel had close to 3k rounds through it and showed no more port erosion than some mid length barrels I’ve looked through with similar round counts. I’m sure bullet and powder selection play a role as well as port location.

[longshot2000]

After talking to Frank about this, I wondered how one of my 18” rifle gassed melonited 4150 barrels was holding up so I had a friend bore scope it. This barrel had close to 3k rounds through it and showed no more port erosion than some mid length barrels I’ve looked through with similar round counts. I’m sure bullet and powder selection play a role as well as port location.

Well, if Frank drilled your gas port, that could very well be. Alot of the evidence on gas port erosion suggests that getting the drill spot between grooves results in far less erosion. Some barrels are showing marked erosion at 1,000 rounds when drilled on top of a groove. I think that is one reason that Colt uses Chrome lining, since they will most likely not take the time to drill in just the right place.

The Meloniting could also be a factor, creating a hardened barrier, like the Chrome. The erosion I have seen is with stainless and 4150 untreated.

[redpillregret]

That is really not the case. There is a great deal of variability in the steel quality, and the making of a great barrel begins with the steel supplier, then continues to the barrel driller or blank manufacturer and then to reamer (chamberer) and lathe shop. Each step has its degree of variability and differences. Douglas is not typically known as the best of the best, but they are darn good, and it just so happens, that empirical evidences suggests that 18" stainless barrels do better from Douglas than other shops. I am not smart enough to know what is different, but many hypothesize that it is the underlying steel alloy. It is possible that it is something else, but I cannot imagine what if might be, if not the metal itself.

Either way, this is after 2,000 to 6,000 rounds of firing, so it could very well be a discussion of how many angels can dance on the head of a pin, for most recreational shooters.

If composition doesn’t match the recipe, then it isn’t the recipe. There are minimum and maximum compositions for each grade of steel and, believe it or not, they tend to be quite narrow. Certainly, Douglas isn’t a company that has found a magical supplier that holds true to formulas while other manufacturers buy stock that deviates such that the properties of the stock is significantly different. IIRC, there are six producers in the US making 416.

I’d love to see this empirical evidence. I see you’ve referenced a shop with “rifles in for repair”. This doesn’t hold much water as one cannot determine rate of fire, ammunition choices, cleaning regimes, etc. There is no control. This would suggest said evidence is “anecdotal”.

Whenever I see claims of a single brand vastly outperforming others of similar cost and specification, my spidery senses tingle. It seems almost as though these claims reek of “fanboyism”.

What barrels are Frank’s barrels being compared to? Who machined them? I think that is important to note.

Having owned a few Douglas barrels (and likely to own a few in the future), they were of fair quality and accurate. However, life has been no better than barrels from Bartlein, Kreiger, Shilen, WOA, of any of the other major manufacturers.



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[titsonritz]

There is an important advantage to the 20" for a hunting platform. I use 20" pencil barrels for my coyote rigs. With just a thread protector there is no need for hearing protection with these longer barrels.

Yeah OK, tell that to my hearing loss. Seriously, get real that isn't going fly here.

[Jsp10477]

46C4220F-2BCB-4444-917D-1BC49CEFA56F.jpgThis isn’t a CLE barrel. It’s an ARP. 3r rifling with the port in the groove. Nothin special, a $200 barrel. When you find a load they like, ARP barrels perform above their price point though.0DDF3D67-C48C-4DC3-A4C5-0006DC47A4F1.jpg

[Jsp10477]

Frank told me that “burrs” develop at the port also. He didn’t say it was just advanced port erosion. He told me the barrels developed the burrs and accuracy went to shit. He said that he took them back to try to lap the burrs out. He’d said the problem was with Kreiger and Bartlein exclusively. He said Douglas and criterion barrels didn’t develope the burrs so he offered them 18” rifle length but wouldn’t do any more Kreiger or Bartlein 18” rifle gas.

I didn’t record the call. If you’re looking to spend some money he’ll talk all you’d like over the phone. I bought a 20” Bartlein from him and it has been worth the money. I’ll buy from him again.