Moving Away From The Slim 9mm Fad

[26 Inf]

Accuracy improves at close range, with officers hitting their targets 37 percent of the time at distances of seven yards or less; at longer ranges, hit rates fall off sharply, to 23 percent.

About one-quarter of all accidental discharges occur while officers are “struggling with a subject.

Actually accuracy doesn't increase, the results of mistakes in marksmanship are less magnified. Everyone's a gunfighter at 7 yards.

[WickedWillis]

I bought a G43 a few months ago, again, because I wanted that small 9mm. Whether it be for Summer carry, or throwing it in a pocket to run to the gas station or Wal Mart, it works great for that. However, I can't shoot the thing nearly well enough to be strapping it on, and carrying it anywhere. I get that I need more time on it to get my proficiency and confidence up, but, that point may never come.

After my last handgun class, I took some time and I really evaluated what I need my carry gun to do. What I came up with personally is;

I need to be confident and well versed on the gun.
I need to be able to manipulate and shoot strong, or weak handed one handed.
I need to be able to make rapid and consistent hits out to 25 yards.
I need to be able to carry at work with it, and not have it be completely noticeable.
I need to be able to carry a spare mag that holds more than the flush base plate I carry in it.
It needs to hold at least 10+1 in a flush fit, or small lip over the end of the grip

So after these thoughts, and identifying my own personal needs, I settled on my Glock 26 for majority carry, Glock 19 when I can dress around it. They are nearly identical in how they function. I can shoot both roughly the same (At range the G26 is much more difficult) and I am confident shooting it at any distance I would need to engage while at my job.

I am well versed and confident with it
I can shoot it well right or left handed
I can make quality hits out to 25 yards with it.
I can carry at work and not have it print like mad. (I can't appendix carry, so I am a 3'oclock guy)
I carry a G17 sp.are.
I carry a flush Glock 10+1 mag, or a Magpul 12+1 mag that I have had excellent luck with so far

Every single person is different, and their needs are also. I was forced to really do a gut check on my EDC and what I can and can't do with it because of a recent disgruntled ex-employee at my place of work.

I think everyone needs to dig down, and find out what they need their gun and carry setup to be, and stick with it. YMMV. Sorry for the long post.

[Mozart]

I'm not sure what type of situations you are in daily that 8rds is not enough...

Sure 2-3 attackers are possible but that gives 2-3rds per badguy, not counting you spare mag/reload. If that's not enough, you'd need to learn and practice more situational awareness, handgun shooting techniques, or just carry a larger capacity pistol.

I've carried plenty of low cap single stacks (still do) and never feel undergunned.

1). When did I ever say I AM in bad situations DAILY that would require more than 8 rounds? This is a thread about hypotheticals and preparedness to defeat unknown threats, and whether a slim gun is sufficient kit in certain circumstances or whether it’s not. Some of you fellas need reading comprehension classes.

2). “Sure 2-3 attackers are possible but that gives 2-3rds per badguy, not counting you spare mag/reload.”

I cannot hit 100% of my shots on a stationary target under fake simulated training stress, so forget a moving target under real live-or-die stress. And you can’t either, guaranteed. So keep the “8 rounds is plenty for 3 bad guys hurr durr” to yourself.

[flenna]

Actually accuracy doesn't increase, the results of mistakes in marksmanship are less magnified. Everyone's a gunfighter at 7 yards.

[26 Inf]

I cannot hit 100% of my shots on a stationary target under fake simulated training stress, so forget a moving target under real live-or-die stress. And you can’t either, guaranteed. So keep the “8 rounds is plenty for 3 bad guys hurr durr” to yourself.

I don't know your level of training, IIRC correctly from other posts, while you were at police academy.

First things first, gain proficiency so you are confident of your ability to make hits.

Don't worry about what the cool kids are carrying/doing, you do you, within the realm of 1) you have to hit with it and 2) you have to conceal it.

I went back and read your first several posts and I'd like to comment on this:

'Threat assessment going Xmas shopping in broad daylight at a mall? Low threat right? Seeing a movie at a theatre in a nicer area? Low. And yet we’ve seen active shooters in places like those.'

Situational awareness - threat awareness for the CCW'er - should not be based on your perception of the likelihood of an attack due to area or location, it needs to be constant, ongoing.

The best way that I have found to instill this in myself is to practice commentary driving at all times - in the car and out. You do it enough and it becomes second nature. Google it, and practice. One buddy in particular gets a little upset as I call his attention to things and people that he hasn't even registered. It becomes a loop running in the background all the the time. Read up on it, dig into it, it will make you a better and safer driver and safer as you roam the AO out of the vehicle.

Combine that with some readings on how to detect weapons:

https://www.buckeyefirearms.org/site...en-handgun.pdf

http://www.policemag.com/channel/pat...d-firearm.aspx

Add some reading on how to 'read' body language and situations:

Gift of Fear: https://www.amazon.com/Other-Surviva...TAVTTXDEGQHFX9

Left of Bang: https://www.amazon.com/Left-Bang-Mar.../dp/1936891301 (wade through it, it is worth it)

And you will be able to prepare yourself mentally as well as physically. The Gift of Fear is a must read, for everybody.

As Steinbeck said 'The final weapon is the brain, all else is supplemental.'

All the gear and training in the world is no good if you aren't ready and in position.

Good luck.

[seb5]

Well, I've been following this thread and chuckle at those that have never needed one but felt it necessary to always carry a fat butt double stack. Carry what you feel comfortable with, I do.

The 9mm slim is not new or a fad. Over the years I've owned and carried 3913's, 225's, Berettas, H&K's, 1911's, BM's, BKM's, and on and on. The single stack 9 is as valid as it ever was.

I've carried almost every day for the last 30 years, for work and personal reasons and never carry anything without a reload! 17 rounder gets a reload, 5 shot gets two or three. My 43 always gets two reloads. With a grip sleeve I can't tell the difference in time or accuracy between a 43 or 26, zip, nada, none. But I very much prefer the 43 to the block in my hand of the 26.

We all have to make our own decisions for carry, if I thought I was going to face off with multiple bad guys I'd stay home or at least put my SBR in a bag, but that's not the case usually. It's not an issue having your plan and what works best for you. The issue is thinking that your plan fits everyone else.

[Arik]

chuckle at those that have never needed one but felt it necessary to always carry a fat butt double stack.


The issue is thinking that your plan fits everyone else.

You "chuckle" at people who think they need one and at the same time say that ....." The issue is thinking that your plan fits everyone else". How do you know I never need one? 9 times out of 10 a two shot Derringer is more than enough but yet people that have never needed one but felt it necessary to always carry more than two rounds

I don't feel necessary to have a "fat butt double stack" it's simply what works. If the G19 was single stack and still same size I'd still carry it because a G43, and guns like it, feel like this in my hand.


I dislike handling little guns with skinny grips. I can wrap my fingers around the twice. There's not enough of a gun to hold. What does have enough grip for me are full size Glocks, HK USP, Beretta 92. All guns that come with removable backstraps I automatically put on the biggest one.

[Mozart]

I don't know your level of training, IIRC correctly from other posts, while you were at police academy.

First things first, gain proficiency so you are confident of your ability to make hits.

Don't worry about what the cool kids are carrying/doing, you do you, within the realm of 1) you have to hit with it and 2) you have to conceal it.

I went back and read your first several posts and I'd like to comment on this:

'Threat assessment going Xmas shopping in broad daylight at a mall? Low threat right? Seeing a movie at a theatre in a nicer area? Low. And yet we’ve seen active shooters in places like those.'

Situational awareness - threat awareness for the CCW'er - should not be based on your perception of the likelihood of an attack due to area or location, it needs to be constant, ongoing.

The best way that I have found to instill this in myself is to practice commentary driving at all times - in the car and out. You do it enough and it becomes second nature. Google it, and practice. One buddy in particular gets a little upset as I call his attention to things and people that he hasn't even registered. It becomes a loop running in the background all the the time. Read up on it, dig into it, it will make you a better and safer driver and safer as you roam the AO out of the vehicle.

Combine that with some readings on how to detect weapons:

https://www.buckeyefirearms.org/site...en-handgun.pdf

http://www.policemag.com/channel/pat...d-firearm.aspx

Add some reading on how to 'read' body language and situations:

Gift of Fear: https://www.amazon.com/Other-Surviva...TAVTTXDEGQHFX9

Left of Bang: https://www.amazon.com/Left-Bang-Mar.../dp/1936891301 (wade through it, it is worth it)

And you will be able to prepare yourself mentally as well as physically. The Gift of Fear is a must read, for everybody.

As Steinbeck said 'The final weapon is the brain, all else is supplemental.'

All the gear and training in the world is no good if you aren't ready and in position.

Good luck.

Thank you for an informative post that actually contributes to the discussion and gives me and everyone else some new (good) ideas. I bought The Gift of Fear a while back, just haven’t made time to read. I’ll check out those other links today and share them with my coworkers too. Thank you.

I’m not a bad shot per se, I qual’d at the Academy with a 96, 98, and 99%, and have since qual’d for my current job with a 100%. But: that’s stationary shooter and target, at a 1.5 second shot interval. All I was saying is that given a real-world dynamic self defense gunfight, most would be lucky to achieve half the hits they are capable of in training, in my opinion. So my answer to that other gentleman was: no. 8 rounds is not enough to successfully end a threat from 2-3 BGs. It might be just barely enough to stop one BG. On paper, yes, real-world, in all likelihood, nope. But again, that’s only one small part of the big picture, as you point out.

[PatrioticDisorder]

There's a concept in law called the "calculus of negligence".

Burden = Probability x Severity

So, if I leave a car parked on a steep hill without engaging the emergency brake, and it rolls away and hits a pedestrian, the courts will use this equation to determine my level of negligence. If the burden (of engaging the parking brake) is less than the product of probability (of the car rolling downhill) times the severity (of harm caused if the runaway car hits someone), then I violated a "duty of care"; I'm negligent.

If you think about it, we sorta do this intuitively in everyday life. Why don't we wear a flak jacket and kevlar when we're out getting groceries with our family? Because in this case, the burden of wearing body armor (pretty darn annoying/high) is greater than the probability we will get into an actual firefight (very very very small) x severity of harm if we don't have our body armor on (true, it would suck to get shot without it). There's a fine line between preparedness and outright paranoia.

In contrast, why do we wear seat belts? The burden of buckling up (very low) is far less than the probability we will get into a car accident (very small) x severity of harm if we don't wear our seatbelts (high).

*****

So we get to concealed carry. Why don't most of us carry around full-sized semi-automatic service weapons (e.g. Glock 17, Sig 226) OWB with a cover garment, with two extra 17-round magazines on our weakside and a small BUG in an ankle holster? Because the burden is slightly too big (even for those who CCW), and thus burden > probability x severity.

In contrast, a small single stack 9mm tips the scale in the other direction. A weapon like this makes most of us forget we're even carrying, so the burden < probability x severity.

Life is all about balancing choices against one another. (Heck, sometimes I want to go to the range and gently remind some of these fatter shooters that they're far far far more likely to die of eating cheeseburgers [i.e. heart attack] than eating bullets [i.e. gun battle], so maybe less time shooting, and more time exercising?) Given my lifestyle (suburban dad), it's extremely unlikely that I'll need a gun, let alone actually fire it. And even if I do fire it, it's also unlikely I'll need more than four rounds:



Thus, since the burden of CCWing a single stack isn't too bad, I'll carry. It seems unproductive to go down the rabbit hole of statistically improbable scenarios like a shootout with multiple attackers that necessitate a large capacity pistol. At least for me, the burden outweighs the probability x severity.

Your equation may look different, of course (depends on your lifestyle, your environment, your comfort with risk, etc).

This, I live in Naples, FL. Very much suburbia, while there is crime, it’s less so than many other places. I carry a G43 95% of the time, a Ruger LCP 2 (the horror) 4% of the time and rarely a G19 or G26. How I dress dictates what I carry, it is hot almost year round down here, I can pocket carry the G43 most of the time and at a minimum a Ruger LCP 2 with anything.

[Bogart]

I had been lusting after a Glock 43. This weekend I shot my girlfriend's Glock 42. Granted it's a 380 and not a 9 but it couldn't get through two full magazines without a malfunction. I shot about ten mags worth of various types of ammo and then told her, "Sell it. You'll never be able to rely on this for defense." It was one of the early Glock 42's that we sent back to be "fixed" by Glock. Obviously it wasn't fixed. That experience soured me on the slimline Glocks for a while, though. I'd have to read glowing reports of reliability from users before I'd ever consider one now.

Don’t let her 42 scare you from a 43. With the exception of <5 malfs which were directly related to the crappy Wolf ammo I was shooting at the time, mine has been great through about 1500 rounds (some Wolf steel, Fed aluminum, Blazer brass, Fed AE, Speer GD, Speer lawman, 115, 124, and 147gr loadings). I’ve used the old sucky OEM connector, the Ghost Edge connector, the newer OEM minus connector, APEX flat trigger shoe, factory slide release, Ghost slide release, factory mag release, Vickers mag release, without TLR6, with TLR6. All worked perfectly.

I only use OEM mags, but some have the factory pinky rest, some have the Vickers +2 and some have the Taran +3 base plates. (Side note: 1 on the Vickers +2s doesn't like to load to 8, but the others work perfectly.)