Army looking at 10 Commercial Sub guns...

**RetroRevolver77** · 06-24-18, 13:43

Originally Posted by eodinert

Sooner or later, everyone gets tired of the excess weight and crappy ergonomics of an AK.

My 106UR's weighs 6.1 lbs for the Krink version. The Krink with the stock folded is more compact than my MP5 with the stock collapsed.

**Ron3** · 06-24-18, 16:15

Originally Posted by Pilot1

What no Swedish K?

Too long, too heavy.

**usmcvet** · 06-24-18, 16:35

Originally Posted by Moose-Knuckle

You guys see a protective detail. I'm thinking the General is wearing two watches.

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**usmcvet** · 06-24-18, 17:00

Originally Posted by Fjallhrafn

It's funny how that happens.

The M16A1 was a lightweight, handy rifle.

Then, 20 years later, along came the M16A2. (I really don't think it's any coincidence that no sooner had the M16A2 been adopted - and the lightweight, handy M16A1 binned - than Colt said, "You know what the Army needs? A lightweight, handy rifle!")

Then the M4 carbine gets adopted. A lightweight, handy rifle.

And 20 years later, along comes the M4A1 (as a general issue, rather than SOF-specific, weapon).

And so the cycle begins anew.

This upper w/o the FA would be ideal. No RDS

I love how light this rifle is.

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**usmcvet** · 06-24-18, 17:26

Originally Posted by SteyrAUG

Not any worse than my 6933 or any other 5.56 SBR I can think of.

The 6933 is really a great choice especially because it takes to be same magazines and ammo everyone else is carrying.

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**SteyrAUG** · 06-24-18, 20:00

Originally Posted by usmcvet

The 6933 is really a great choice especially because it takes to be same magazines and ammo everyone else is carrying.

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Sure. And I wasn't really advocating the AUG for a US service rifle. I was just saying one is as compact as the other. 6933 has magazine advantages, AUG offers a 16" barrel in the same size package. 6933 will actually suppress better, AUG is probably a more durable rifle. Trade offs are probably endless with various comparisons, I can't think of any military rifle that was adopted by a first world military during the last half of the 20th century that was a complete and total POS with no redeeming values except for the L85A1 and F88 and both of those mostly suffer from poor production quality rather than poor design.

**SteyrAUG** · 06-24-18, 20:10

Originally Posted by Ron3

True. That's why if they are serious about this (huge "if") and concealability is so important it would be no bigger than an Uzi Pistol/Vz61/Mp5k/Glock 18 w/folding stock sized weapons.

Yes, and that is why something like the B&T TP9 should be on the list. The Vz61 is a very compact design but I don't think you could bring it up to 9mm without increasing size and weight making it less desirable. I think the reciprocating slide on the G18 would be a bad idea for a general use SMG. The Uzi Pro SMG is now a closed bolt operation but I wonder if they have really solved cook off issues associated with what is still a big heavy bolt that retains a lot of heat.

I don't even know why full size, non HK manufacture variants of the MP5 are being looked at. They are asking for a less reliable MP5 with lower QC standards. Even if it is just for military police / rear area guard duty applications, they'd be better off handing out the 1977 vintage MP5s that are still in inventory than buying new Turkish or non spec US versions. I bet the Navy has a shit ton of old MP5s they'd love to give away and upgrade to the next special ninja rifle.

**MegademiC** · 06-24-18, 21:10

Originally Posted by SteyrAUG

Yes, and that is why something like the B&T TP9 should be on the list. The Vz61 is a very compact design but I don't think you could bring it up to 9mm without increasing size and weight making it less desirable. I think the reciprocating slide on the G18 would be a bad idea for a general use SMG. The Uzi Pro SMG is now a closed bolt operation but I wonder if they have really solved cook off issues associated with what is still a big heavy bolt that retains a lot of heat.

I don't even know why full size, non HK manufacture variants of the MP5 are being looked at. They are asking for a less reliable MP5 with lower QC standards. Even if it is just for military police / rear area guard duty applications, they'd be better off handing out the 1977 vintage MP5s that are still in inventory than buying new Turkish or non spec US versions. I bet the Navy has a shit ton of old MP5s they'd love to give away and upgrade to the next special ninja rifle.

Based on my limited experience with FA, and having never shot one, a TP9 w/folding stock seems, to me, conceptually optimal for a tiny concealable FA gun. Any smaller an id keep it semi. The design should allow decent accuracy- ill have to try one if i can find it locally. Ever shoot one, or a tmp or similar FA?

**Ron3** · 06-24-18, 22:21

Originally Posted by SteyrAUG

Yes, and that is why something like the B&T TP9 should be on the list. The Vz61 is a very compact design but I don't think you could bring it up to 9mm without increasing size and weight making it less desirable. I think the reciprocating slide on the G18 would be a bad idea for a general use SMG. The Uzi Pro SMG is now a closed bolt operation but I wonder if they have really solved cook off issues associated with what is still a big heavy bolt that retains a lot of heat.

I agree the B&T TP9 should be a top contender. It is roughly 25 % lighter than the Mp5K.

The questionable things I found about the Tp9:

-The semi-auto trigger is reportedly not very good. Long, long reset. But this could be completely different on the SMG.
-Suppressor mount system is "special" and you can't mount any suppressor. However, suppressor use is NOT part of what they are "looking" for so I say it's a non-issue.
-Magazines. The body and feed lips are all polymer. Are they vetted, yet?
-Recoil. In the few videos I found of SMG's, there is certainly more recoil than an Mp5K, but that's expected since the TP9 isn't roller lock and is lighter.

That's all I got. Everything else seems to be a "go" to me. It's probably more "drop safe" than some of the competition, too. I think that is very important.

I haven't read anything about the Uzi Pro as a SMG so I don't know if it's "ready" for such work or not.

The Vz-61 is roughly 25 % lighter than the light B&T TP9. Your right a 9x19 version would wreck the good things about the gun. What it does need are 30-40 round magazines and way to mount a RDS. Yea, it's 7.65 mm / .32. but so what? Recoil is very low and the gun very controllable. The ammo and mags are light and an accurate, short burst of hot 7.65 mm bullets to the face is deadly. It would take extra effort keep an ammo supply. 9x19 offers the option of soft-armor penetrating bullets. (also would be a special ammo supply)

Doing some research, I think your right about the Glock 18. Stocks are made for it and it could be RDS equipped. But it really seems to jump around (with and without a stock) and not provide the full auto accuracy a top-tier unit would like. (say, 5 shot burst in a 4 inch group at 25 yds almost every time)