Ra 5.7 Uppers

[CQB]

30! or 20? 30 would be nice...

CMMG sells 30rd pistol mags.

[DocGKR]

Too bad the 5.7 mm has not demonstrated the good incapacitation potential and desireable terminal effects in many documented U.S. law enforcement officer involved shooting incidents...

[CQB]

Ok, How do I get one of these? [IMG] [/IMG]

[Pat_Rogers]

The SS190 did fairly well in killing all terrorists that seized the Peruvian embassey back in the 90's. Many of which had on soft body armor.

Can you cite your sources on that- that all the t's were killed with 5.7? How many were wearing armor?

The experience in the US is that the 5.7 is a very poor performer- but Gary Roberts, who actually knows a thing or two about ballistics- has already told you that.

Speaking with several people who have used the P90 for real on real deal bad guys paints a much different picture.

Wanting one to play with is a worthwhile endeavor. Wanting one to fight with may be something else entirely, and the 5.56x45mm round can do that job with greater efficiency.

[Nitrox]

It makes no sense what so ever to take an AR and handicap it with a smaller round. The package is nearly identical in size and weight so...

[clynch]

It makes no sense what so ever to take an AR and handicap it with a smaller round. The package is nearly identical in size and weight so...

With the exception of .22 caliber conversion kits for kids, women, and training I agree with you - Especially given the cost factor with 5.7x28 ammo vs. the cost of .22

I have to say though, I think the RA upper is an innovative design.

[CQB]

Can you cite your sources on that- that all the t's were killed with 5.7? How many were wearing armor?

The experience in the US is that the 5.7 is a very poor performer- but Gary Roberts, who actually knows a thing or two about ballistics- has already told you that.

Speaking with several people who have used the P90 for real on real deal bad guys paints a much different picture.

Wanting one to play with is a worthwhile endeavor. Wanting one to fight with may be something else entirely, and the 5.56x45mm round can do that job with greater efficiency.

Here is a general article on the stand-off:
http://www.cnn.com/WORLD/9612/23/peru.pm/

Here is additional info:
http://www.cnn.com/WORLD/9612/23/peru/index.html#1

P90 Info:
http://www.defensereview.com/modules...rticle&sid=109

Look I'm not going to argue that the 5.7 is a 5.56 replacement even FN doesn't push that. That would be a foolish statement. The 5.7 P90 is meant as a smg entry weapon that unlike a 9mm MP5 will defeat soft BA. Personally prefered 9mm MP5 round is a Winchester 147gr +p+, but that is not dropping BA tango's. The SS190 is a formidable round. I'm not sure where you are getting poor LE effectiveness? What US LE department is issuing SS190's to SRT and HRT's? If you research the evolution from the IOM to the USG the real reason is the US Secret Service has been looking for a specialty EP sidearm that will defeat soft BA. FN made the changes. No information has been published, I know. Could you imagine the buzz on AP handguns in domestic USG-LE hands? Anyhow, I like the upper because it takes the 50rd P90 mags and firing a P90 with 50rds is really controllable. Try spraying 50rds in a CAR-M4 while clearing a 10X10 room in CQB and keep groups tight.
I for one prefer what has been used for years, and if I had to choose I would use a HK UMP 45ACP for room clearing. But having a 5.7 USG to punch a tango's BA is invaluable.
Besides, have you ever bought anything because it was cool and worked?
How many of you bought shorty M4's with Noveske piggy breaks, are you clearing rooms that cant handle 16'barrels. Or building them because there cool?

[CQB]

It makes no sense what so ever to take an AR and handicap it with a smaller round. The package is nearly identical in size and weight so...

Nitrox, truely no offense but aren't you the one who said that Noveske would'nt be able to make a 6.5 Grendel because AA wouldn't let him? That is until AA owner Bill Alexander said that he would......

https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread...hlight=grendel

[Nitrox]

Nitrox, truely no offense but aren't you the one who said that Noveske would'nt be able to make a 6.5 Grendel because AA wouldn't let him? That is until AA owner Bill Alexander said that he would......

https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread...hlight=grendel

I don't recall ever saying Noveske wasn't able to make anything, he certainly has the ability. What I said was, and is, accurate. Until AA licenses the reamer specs to Noveske you can't buy a 6.5 barrel from him. The next best thing (or maybe even the same thing depending on how the license agreement is worked out) is to take a PacNor blank and send it to AA.

As far as the 5.7 is concerned, it is completely backward to put it in an AR. The rifle would be the same size and weight and and have an inferior performing cartridge.



Any other questions?

[Pat_Rogers]

Here is a general article on the stand-off:
http://www.cnn.com/WORLD/9612/23/peru.pm/

Here is additional info:
http://www.cnn.com/WORLD/9612/23/peru/index.html#1

P90 Info:
http://www.defensereview.com/modules...rticle&sid=109

Look I'm not going to argue that the 5.7 is a 5.56 replacement even FN doesn't push that. That would be a foolish statement. The 5.7 P90 is meant as a smg entry weapon that unlike a 9mm MP5 will defeat soft BA. Personally prefered 9mm MP5 round is a Winchester 147gr +p+, but that is not dropping BA tango's. The SS190 is a formidable round. I'm not sure where you are getting poor LE effectiveness? What US LE department is issuing SS190's to SRT and HRT's? If you research the evolution from the IOM to the USG the real reason is the US Secret Service has been looking for a specialty EP sidearm that will defeat soft BA. FN made the changes. No information has been published, I know. Could you imagine the buzz on AP handguns in domestic USG-LE hands? Anyhow, I like the upper because it takes the 50rd P90 mags and firing a P90 with 50rds is really controllable. Try spraying 50rds in a CAR-M4 while clearing a 10X10 room in CQB and keep groups tight.
I for one prefer what has been used for years, and if I had to choose I would use a HK UMP 45ACP for room clearing. But having a 5.7 USG to punch a tango's BA is invaluable.
Besides, have you ever bought anything because it was cool and worked?
How many of you bought shorty M4's with Noveske piggy breaks, are you clearing rooms that cant handle 16'barrels. Or building them because there cool?

Good Morning.
None of your sources states anything other than generalities. If you have definitive information supporting your comments that all of the T's were killed by 5.7 as well as they were wearing armor, i would be interested in seeing it.

Unsure of your background, but CQB is by definition intimate and surgical.
"Spraying" 50 rounds in a bedroom sized area is something that i have never been taught in any of those entry classes i have attended; something i- or anyone i know -teaches; nor is it a TTP that i or anyone that i know uses.

Both Houston TX and Jacksonville FL used P90's. I am not aware if Houston still uses it, but having spoken at length with a J'ville SWAT cop who was involved in multiple shootings with it he had this to say.
"The gun is accurate and controlable. That is a good thing because you need to be able to hit the BG with a lot of rounds- they have little effect. The magazines crack and if we had it to do again, we wouldn't have bought them".

Unsure what you mean by the folowing.
"I for one would prefer what has been used for years..."
OK, then 5.56 would fall into that box. Even NYPD has been using that going back to the 70's, and the military units tasked with DA missions have been using M4 or MK18's for a great many years doing CQB. A great many police teams dropped the sub caliber guns as they are basically un- ergonomic and heavy pistols.
I'm fortunate in that i get to work with some very professional people who have access to a great number of platforms. 5.56x45 is a standard for a reason.
I am not sure what your use for the P90 is. If you are on a team or this is theoretical or whatever. Perforating armor isn't the only criteria. Hey- 22 LR will do that. Not everyone wears armor, and not all shots are taken at ranges under 7yds.
And i would be hard pressed to see the justification under the color of law for "spraying 50 rounds" in a domestic situation.