Army picks SIG to produce Next Generation Squad Weapon

[BoringGuy45]

I remember reading when this first started that the Army chose .277 because they found it was the "perfect" caliber for a combat rifle after their testing. Why is it better than a 6.5 or 7mm bullet? Who knows.

From what I understand, 6.5 has the flattest trajectory and highest BC, 7mm has the best terminal ballistics and barrier penetration, and 6.8 is a happy medium between the two. They found the same thing when they were developing the 6.8 SPC, and even back before that, when they developed the .276 Pedersen.

[1168]

I remember reading when this first started that the Army chose .277 because they found it was the "perfect" caliber for a combat rifle after their testing. Why is it better than a 6.5 or 7mm bullet? Who knows.

Yeah, I was extremely skeptical of that, and still am. The claim that a 6.8 mm projectile is noticeably more lethal or any less precise/accurate than a 6.5mm one is….debatable. I say this as a guy that is very fond 6.5-7mm cartridges.

I read they are using "normal" brass ammo for training. This coincides with Sinister's lament that the scopes are set up only for the high pressure ammo earlier in the thread.

Sinister is more up to date than I am on the fielding of this and whatever headaches pop up, or don’t pop up. A lower pressure load is probably a good idea, and it won’t be the first time a military has fielded two or more pressure levels in otherwise dimensionally identical cartridges. Including ours.

[Wake27]

I may be getting systems mixed up but I’m almost positive that a SRTA round is part of this. It has to be really, the SDZs are insanely different and training application will be very limited without major reconstruction at many installations. But, while that will expand access, it also means that far less experience will be gained with the actual “combat” round. I don’t see how that can brief well to anyone that actually pulls a trigger.


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[1168]

I may be getting systems mixed up but I’m almost positive that a SRTA round is part of this. It has to be really, the SDZs are insanely different and training application will be very limited without major reconstruction at many installations. But, while that will expand access, it also means that far less experience will be gained with the actual “combat” round. I don’t see how that can brief well to anyone that actually pulls a trigger.


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Good point on the SDZs. Its been a while since I’ve had to survey and freehand planning calcs for ad hoc ranges based on safety fans. That’s definitely going to be a thing, and I can see getting interesting on Benning’s main post ranges, and many of Jackson’s. But, again, I haven’t done the math or looked at imagery, so maybe it’s not a problem.

You’re spot-on about the potential for training scars from using SRTA. Unfortunately, we both know that most Soldiers aren’t ever going to train at the distances this gun is designed around, and most will never train on recoil management or firing more than one or two shots per target. So they won’t even know that it’s a problem until it is. Hell, many commanders will violate the publications’ guidelines on using Alt-C, as they do now, and have for decades, and dudes will get “qualified” at 25 meters (or yards). I’d say its similar to using lower-powered ammo at certain matches, or for short range training, as is sometimes my own practice, but with a barely competent population that has a percentage of dudes with true proficiency. As a side note, I’ve noticed that the realistic simulation trainers, even the newest one, don’t care at all if you rest your barrel on the support; no POI shift. But they might shit the bed if you rest your mag on the ground. Training scars 4 dayz.

My real beef with this project is that the money should be spent on training, and instead this new rifle will make training more expensive, on top of procurement cost. And it will eliminate or require alteration of some existing training facilities, which is potentially a HUGE hidden cost that could have been spent on ammo and time. The rifle itself might be badass as a DMR. Probably the best ever fielded by any conventional force, potentially even unconventional ones.

This is our generation’s M14.

[Diamondback]

Good point on the SDZs. Its been a while since I’ve had to survey and freehand planning calcs for ad hoc ranges based on safety fans. That’s definitely going to be a thing, and I can see getting interesting on Benning’s main post ranges, and many of Jackson’s. But, again, I haven’t done the math or looked at imagery, so maybe it’s not a problem.

You’re spot-on about the potential for training scars from using SRTA. Unfortunately, we both know that most Soldiers aren’t ever going to train at the distances this gun is designed around, and most will never train on recoil management or firing more than one or two shots per target. So they won’t even know that it’s a problem until it is. Hell, many commanders will violate the publications’ guidelines on using Alt-C, as they do now, and have for decades, and dudes will get “qualified” at 25 meters (or yards). I’d say its similar to using lower-powered ammo at certain matches, or for short range training, as is sometimes my own practice, but with a barely competent population that has a percentage of dudes with true proficiency. As a side note, I’ve noticed that the realistic simulation trainers, even the newest one, don’t care at all if you rest your barrel on the support; no POI shift. But they might shit the bed if you rest your mag on the ground. Training scars 4 dayz.

My real beef with this project is that the money should be spent on training, and instead this new rifle will make training more expensive, on top of procurement cost. And it will eliminate or require alteration of some existing training facilities, which is potentially a HUGE hidden cost that could have been spent on ammo and time. The rifle itself might be badass as a DMR. Probably the best ever fielded by any conventional force, potentially even unconventional ones.

This is our generation’s M14.

But you forget the most important thing: Spreading the Payola. The MIC's members and the Congressvermin they employ getting their pieces of the pie are far more important thaan the competent lives of mere pissant prole grunts... *snort* Remember, these people think that the enire world is a chessboard, THEiR chessboard, and all the rest of us are just so many pawns to be sacrificed.

[ABNAK]

This is our generation’s M14.

What I find fascinating is that we are witnessing what we haven't seen in almost 60 years: the adoption of a new caliber and new weapon system. Not a change/downsizing like the M16 --> M16A2 --> M4 Carbine, or even an ammunition change like M193 --> M855 --> M855A1. Hope it goes well but the fact we are seeing it in our lifetimes is rather interesting.

The year I was born you had regular Army and Marine Corps infantry units in combat using the M14, but a few select Army units were just getting issued the M16 (like the 1st Cav, 82nd, 101st, and SF).

Interesting times we are living in as far as military weaponry is concerned.

[screechjet]

What I find fascinating is that we are witnessing what we haven't seen in almost 60 years: the adoption of a new caliber and new weapon system. Not a change/downsizing like the M16 --> M16A2 --> M4 Carbine, or even an ammunition change like M193 --> M855 --> M855A1. Hope it goes well but the fact we are seeing it in our lifetimes is rather interesting.

The year I was born you had regular Army and Marine Corps infantry units in combat using the M14, but a few select Army units were just getting issued the M16 (like the 1st Cav, 82nd, 101st, and SF).

Interesting times we are living in as far as military weaponry is concerned.

I'd love to know what the justification is for a nickel into small arms procurement when there far more critical emergent needs, drones, CUAS and thermal sensors and protection coming immediately to mind.

[ABNAK]

I'd love to know what the justification is for a nickel into small arms procurement when there far more critical emergent needs, drones, CUAS and thermal sensors and protection coming immediately to mind.

Absolutely! The war in Ukraine, however you feel about it, has been a proving/disproving ground for what we now see as warfare in the 21st Century. The GWOT saw the extensive use of armed drones, so the U.S. kind of paved the way. In the last 15-20 years the world's militaries have developed the shit we see zipping over and dropping a grenade on troops in a trench line. Don't need the bigger Predators and Reapers as much, now some 19yo grunt controls a unit-organic small drone. It's the new paradigm.

The point of my observation above is that even with the advent of all this automated killing power, the need for a caliber and weapon system change was apparently seen and then implemented. We can argue the cost vs benefits vs need until we're blue in the face.....but it's happening and as an amateur student of military history it will be interesting to see how it plays out.