Dinosaurs and the Arctic

**JiminAZ** · 07-09-22, 16:13

Originally Posted by SteyrAUG

I just explained it, plate tectonics. Land masses move, this is also why we have faults and earthquakes. Where you are standing, millions of years ago, it was in a tropical zone near the equator. And yes there were ferns on conifers and they weren't special snow ferns and conifers.

No. I should have explained the observation better. I also should have mentioned that I work for an oil company. I get the geology. The shallow material we are drilling through is likely on the order of 10's of thousands to maybe a few hundred thousand years old max. Unconsolidated gravel and sand for the most part. Not sedimentary rock, not rock at all other than for the fact that it was deposited by river systems and glacial action (mostly). The plates move on the order of sub inch to maybe 1.5" per year. The math for that hypothesis doesn't work. At an inch a year a million years is 15.8 miles.

Plus the organic material is intact and frozen. Not fossilized. It's "recent" in geologic terms. So for whatever reason, it was significantly warmer here not that long ago. I suspect the earth just went through a warm period, and dinosaurs could have thrived here during that period.

Whenever it froze, it happened pretty fast because the organic stuff is preserved. And no, to my knowledge we haven't drilled through a frozen dinosaur! (like we would even know).

**WillBrink** · 07-09-22, 17:23

Originally Posted by JiminAZ

No. I should have explained the observation better. I also should have mentioned that I work for an oil company. I get the geology. The shallow material we are drilling through is likely on the order of 10's of thousands to maybe a few hundred thousand years old max. Unconsolidated gravel and sand for the most part. Not sedimentary rock, not rock at all other than for the fact that it was deposited by river systems and glacial action (mostly). The plates move on the order of sub inch to maybe 1.5" per year. The math for that hypothesis doesn't work. At an inch a year a million years is 15.8 miles.

Plus the organic material is intact and frozen. Not fossilized. It's "recent" in geologic terms. So for whatever reason, it was significantly warmer here not that long ago. I suspect the earth just went through a warm period, and dinosaurs could have thrived here during that period.

Whenever it froze, it happened pretty fast because the organic stuff is preserved. And no, to my knowledge we haven't drilled through a frozen dinosaur! (like we would even know).

And at 60, 80, 100+ million years? Plate movement does not explain all, but is very clear is the planet was much warmer for a long time and and animals etc lived a lot farther north and south in larger numbers at one time, including dinosaurs. Also:

https://www.sciencenews.org/article/...g-dinosaur-age

**JiminAZ** · 07-09-22, 17:48

Will, my original response had to do with the topic of dogmatism around speculation in stringing the story together, not longer term planetary/geological history. Again, perhaps I was too cryptic.

My only point is that there is SOOOOOO much we don't know but people can't stand not knowing, so they get dogmatic about speculations. And I think we can all agree it is stupid to assume the climate has always been, or will always be like it is now.

I rub elbows with geologists all the time, trust me I can do the math on millions of years.

My observation proves that northern climes (at least at 70 deg latitude north) were warmer quite recently (in geological terms), when this particular hunk of dirt was in the far north. Can't tell you why, just that the evidence indicates it.

**JiminAZ** · 07-09-22, 18:04

Will, I really am a poor communicator. Went back and re-read my post. When I said "dinosaurs could have thrived here during that period" what I was trying to communicate was that fairly recently it was warm enough here for plausable dinosaur habitat. Not that they were here then. I can see why you took it that way.

**WillBrink** · 07-09-22, 18:59

Originally Posted by JiminAZ

Will, my original response had to do with the topic of dogmatism around speculation in stringing the story together, not longer term planetary/geological history. Again, perhaps I was too cryptic.

My only point is that there is SOOOOOO much we don't know but people can't stand not knowing, so they get dogmatic about speculations. And I think we can all agree it is stupid to assume the climate has always been, or will always be like it is now.

I rub elbows with geologists all the time, trust me I can do the math on millions of years.

My observation proves that northern climes (at least at 70 deg latitude north) were warmer quite recently (in geological terms), when this particular hunk of dirt was in the far north. Can't tell you why, just that the evidence indicates it.

That's human nature and to a large extent why we are our own worst enemy. Science is never dogmatic, scientists on the other hand, can a real PITA that way. Medical docs often a lot worse, but it's the norm in any profession due hubris and ego.

**SteyrAUG** · 07-09-22, 19:17

Originally Posted by JiminAZ

No. I should have explained the observation better. I also should have mentioned that I work for an oil company. I get the geology. The shallow material we are drilling through is likely on the order of 10's of thousands to maybe a few hundred thousand years old max. Unconsolidated gravel and sand for the most part. Not sedimentary rock, not rock at all other than for the fact that it was deposited by river systems and glacial action (mostly). The plates move on the order of sub inch to maybe 1.5" per year. The math for that hypothesis doesn't work. At an inch a year a million years is 15.8 miles.

Plus the organic material is intact and frozen. Not fossilized. It's "recent" in geologic terms. So for whatever reason, it was significantly warmer here not that long ago. I suspect the earth just went through a warm period, and dinosaurs could have thrived here during that period.

Whenever it froze, it happened pretty fast because the organic stuff is preserved. And no, to my knowledge we haven't drilled through a frozen dinosaur! (like we would even know).

That does change things a bit. However we have learned that not everything fossilizes. We have even found dinosaur tissue in non fossilized bones, obviously no viable DNA but organic matter can exist for a lot longer than we once thought, especially if it is preserved in temps like the arctic.

We have a few general possibilities.

1. You guys were actually at a much older strata than believed at a time when the ground was in a more tropical location.

2. You have found a genus of conifers and ferns that can survive arctic temperatures but for some reason don't still exist.

It is also possible that we experienced a much warmer interglaciation period than generally thought possible but I don't think the earth would have survived complete loss of the polar ice caps any more than it would have come back from a complete snowball ice age (although there are some who believe it has and think the evidence exists to prove it did).

The problem is the planet is not a clock and these things don't happen at exact intervals and the rate of plate tectonics over the years is an estimate that isn't necessarily established beyond doubt. As a result lots of stuff is possible.

To even attempt to arrive at a correct answer you'd need a specific, qualified expedition to examine the evidence.

**TomMcC** · 07-09-22, 19:27

Some folks believe in millions/billions of years and some don't.

**SteyrAUG** · 07-09-22, 19:59

Originally Posted by TomMcC

Some folks believe in millions/billions of years and some don't.

Some folks believe we never went to the moon.

I don't want to challenge your beliefs, because it's a fools errand for many reasons, but if a star is 500 million light years away...and we can see it...what do you think that means?

**TomMcC** · 07-09-22, 20:18

Originally Posted by SteyrAUG

Some folks believe we never went to the moon.

I don't want to challenge your beliefs, because it's a fools errand for many reasons, but if a star is 500 million light years away...and we can see it...what do you think that means?

It doesn't mean what you think it means, but then I wasn't on a fools errand myself.