Hopefully this will be the ultimate bolt life discussion thread...

[Pasta123]

Since last year i built my first AR, I learned a lot regarding the bolt...

IMO, most people wish for a cost-effective solution that "lasts really long" and is not "virtually indestructible and unobtainium", so it's not limited to a few that's willing to pay. We can get the latter, and probably already did, but maybe not the former.

Lewis once told me, "I can make a bolt for an AR-15 that I can guarantee would never break. Unfortunately, it would cost more than the rest of the rifle."

I think the #1 issue is information asymmetry, where we hear bits & pieces all over the web, but none was enough to tell the whole story. You need to have the correct info to make good decisions. Unfortunately, the firearm community are based on experience, not knowledge. Same for both users and companies. Can't address a non-exist problem or go with a flimsy fix, right?

#2 is your average Joe doesn't have enough resources to test it out. That means at least 10,000 rounds or more are fired in a rapid session. To manufacturers, a simple idea could cost even more to iron out, and God only knows if it'll work. How many companies are willing to sell a cheap & effective bolt at a loss?


Let alone those who make it will protect their secrets right away.


Above all else, if a bolt lasts until the gun needs to be fixed (like a rebarrel), at least that doesn't hurt the combat effectiveness, so most are still rolling with their mil-spec bolt. The need isn't there. Those who are looking for an enhancement are going a step further.


On the bright side, though, I think it's doable. We should have enough knowledge regarding bolt design. We just need to know how.

[constructor]

Since last year i built my first AR, I learned a lot regarding the bolt...

IMO, most people wish for a cost-effective solution that "lasts really long" and is not "virtually indestructible and unobtainium", so it's not limited to a few that's willing to pay. We can get the latter, and probably already did, but maybe not the former.



I think the #1 issue is information asymmetry, where we hear bits & pieces all over the web, but none was enough to tell the whole story. You need to have the correct info to make good decisions. Unfortunately, the firearm community are based on experience, not knowledge. Same for both users and companies. Can't address a non-exist problem or go with a flimsy fix, right?

#2 is your average Joe doesn't have enough resources to test it out. That means at least 10,000 rounds or more are fired in a rapid session. To manufacturers, a simple idea could cost even more to iron out, and God only knows if it'll work. How many companies are willing to sell a cheap & effective bolt at a loss?


Let alone those who make it will protect their secrets right away.


Above all else, if a bolt lasts until the gun needs to be fixed (like a rebarrel), at least that doesn't hurt the combat effectiveness, so most are still rolling with their mil-spec bolt. The need isn't there. Those who are looking for an enhancement are going a step further.


On the bright side, though, I think it's doable. We should have enough knowledge regarding bolt design. We just need to know how.

It was done 13 years ago, and could have been done several different ways. I'm not sure if Knights E3 was first or LWRC or LMT for the 5.56 bolt. I did it for a different reason, Grendel bolts were breaking and I wanted to use an even larger cartridge the 6BRX. The better longer lasting bolts were offered some near $100 and some around $155 but most will just buy the cheapest bolt possible and complain when it breaks or replace it and move on.

You know how fluidmaster makes the toilet flappers fail after being in the water so long so they can sell more flappers over and over? Most older people are pissed because things aren't built to last anymore, not the common gunowner. If given the choice I think they will buy the cheapest over the best 90% of the time. I'm sure available funds plays a part in that.

[26 Inf]

Since last year i built my first AR, I learned a lot regarding the bolt...

IMO, most people wish for a cost-effective solution that "lasts really long" and is not "virtually indestructible and unobtainium", so it's not limited to a few that's willing to pay.

your average Joe doesn't have enough resources to test it out. That means at least 10,000 rounds or more are fired in a rapid session.

Above all else, if a bolt lasts until the gun needs to be fixed (like a rebarrel), at least that doesn't hurt the combat effectiveness, so most are still rolling with their mil-spec bolt.

Not sure where you are going with this but here are a couple of thoughts:

1) The Average Joe AR Owner doesn't fire over 1,000 rounds out of there rifle over it's lifetime;

2) Advertisers and industry shills are almost without exception trying to get the user to perceive a need for the greatest and latest - this is NOT limited to firearms by any means;

3) Some folks like to be part of the in-crowd by buying those items;

4) For 99.99% of users failure of any part on an AR, be it bolt, fire control unit, whatever is not a life or death situation - it means the end of a range trip, or dropping out of a match;

5) For the life or death users it seems to me that reasonable, PROVEN enhancements in design, plus regular inspection and replacement are the keys to reliability;

I was always concerned over extractor damage when we practiced fail to extract drills with our student officers. At one time I even suggested that we do a final armorer tear down and inspection, replacing the extractors are they had finished the firearms portion of the academy. When I considered the time involved and then the cost of three hundred whatever brand pistol extractors of the course of a year, I realized it wasn't a realistic solution.

More realistic would be an agency program which replaced every spring, the firing pin and the extractor, every three to five years.

Seems to me that is the reasonable and sensible way for the average weapon owner to go with defensive firearms.

Was this responsive to your post?

[Pasta123]

Not sure where you are going with this but here are a couple of thoughts:

1) The Average Joe AR Owner doesn't fire over 1,000 rounds out of there rifle over it's lifetime;

2) Advertisers and industry shills are almost without exception trying to get the user to perceive a need for the greatest and latest - this is NOT limited to firearms by any means;

3) Some folks like to be part of the in-crowd by buying those items;

4) For 99.99% of users failure of any part on an AR, be it bolt, fire control unit, whatever is not a life or death situation - it means the end of a range trip, or dropping out of a match;

5) For the life or death users it seems to me that reasonable, PROVEN enhancements in design, plus regular inspection and replacement are the keys to reliability;

I was always concerned over extractor damage when we practiced fail to extract drills with our student officers. At one time I even suggested that we do a final armorer tear down and inspection, replacing the extractors are they had finished the firearms portion of the academy. When I considered the time involved and then the cost of three hundred whatever brand pistol extractors of the course of a year, I realized it wasn't a realistic solution.

More realistic would be an agency program which replaced every spring, the firing pin and the extractor, every three to five years.

Seems to me that is the reasonable and sensible way for the average weapon owner to go with defensive firearms.

Was this responsive to your post?

Fair.

I’m looking for two things: a more cost effective solution and how do we test it out. Latter is probably the hardest.

[Todd.K]

I’d rather design a new gun that is slightly upsized than hope to capture market share from the glut of cheap AR bolts made.

[constructor]

I’d rather design a new gun that is slightly upsized than hope to capture market share from the glut of cheap AR bolts made.

Someone should have done that 10 years ago- 2.5" long mag well and increased the barrel extension and bolt diameter .050"

[constructor]

Fair.

I’m looking for two things: a more cost effective solution and how do we test it out. Latter is probably the hardest.

Like I said earlier it's easy I did it 13 years ago. A couple of CNCs at 100k each, need someone to figure out the machining process and write a program after the bolt is designed.
Just take the bolts to a lab for destructive testing.
One thing to keep in mind, there is a patent troll in Vegas that has a patent on any bolts larger than a standard AR15 bolt. He's just waiting for someone to infringe so he can sue. I'm the one that gave him the idea in 2007 and he tried to sue me in 2015 but, I had proof I was making the bolts before he filed for the patent.

[Pasta123]

Like I said earlier it's easy I did it 13 years ago. A couple of CNCs at 100k each, need someone to figure out the machining process and write a program after the bolt is designed.
Just take the bolts to a lab for destructive testing.
One thing to keep in mind, there is a patent troll in Vegas that has a patent on any bolts larger than a standard AR15 bolt. He's just waiting for someone to infringe so he can sue. I'm the one that gave him the idea in 2007 and he tried to sue me in 2015 but, I had proof I was making the bolts before he filed for the patent.

Wow, that's a lot of drama for a small improvement.

Apalogize I'm working earlier and don't have time to response. How's the compatibility with your new design?

You're also right on things were not made to last, that's not just firearms, it's mostly due to the fast-paced nature of modern technology and how most people want instant success. That's not how firearms work, where a small idea need year-over-year to polish.

I also think manufacturers are very short-sighted to let their own idea staying proprietary. This is the reason I look away from M4E1 and Knights. If they could release some of their design as a standard, it could very well be a win-win, but now you'll be forced to choose their own barrel and handguards. They're not bad, but not always fits one's need.

[markm]

You know how fluidmaster makes the toilet flappers fail after being in the water so long so they can sell more flappers over and over?

This is the absolute essence of the American Mediocrity Syndrome that pollutes our production and design. Now I don't believe that the same country that blew up two space shuttles can build a decent automobile if their lives depended on it. But the Toiled flapper is a perfect example of the American culture of building garbage because most imbeciles will accept it. Shit! People still buy Chevy, Dodge and Ford garbage every day!

When it comes to ARs, there's certainly a large portion of buyers who just bee-bop into a gun store and are happy with some LWRC trash. Guy on this forum at least attempt to seek out the better/best option for the buck.

[Todd.K]

The people who had premature bolt failures may have just gotten a poorly heat treated batch. They also used their guns in an unusually harsh manner.

The average or even moderately abused civilian AR doesn’t even break the cheapest nitride bolt with any regularly that I’ve seen.