The civilian PDW, my Sig MPX Copperhead.

[C-grunt]

A while back I saw some videos on Youtube and read some discussions about the civilian PDW. This theory differs from the military PDW as I dont need it to necessarily penetrate body armor and it needs to be more concealable that a military PDW such as a P90. The main theory being that you could have this gun stowed in a laptop bag or other small bag and carry it around with you on your day to day life.

I began looking around and found the K configurations of the PCCs to be a bit to big. Most of the pistol chassis systems seem to be kind of junk, except for the Flux Raider which is just always out of stock. The B&T TP9 fits the bill very well but everything Ive read/watched about it says it's not great and it's 2000 bucks. The Army's Sub Compact Weapons trial brought about the B&T APC9 in mini configuration and the Sig MPX Copperhead. I have friends with both and they both work awesome, except again the Sig is 2k dollars and the APC is 2500 dollars. I had decided I was going to build up a MPA Defender Mac11 clone. From what I had put together the gun with a side charger, picatinny top, Glock mag grip, folding brace system, and flash hider, the total cost would be around 1100 bucks.

I was getting ready to buy all the parts when I saw PSA had a Daily Deal sale on the Sig MPX Copperhead for 1300 bucks. It's more than I was looking to spend on this project, but overall I think it's a better overall weapon platform than the Mac11 clone. I picked it up this weekend along with an A3 Tactical folding brace. I have two 35 round mags on the way to go with the stubby 20 rounder the gun comes with. I scavenged some MBUS irons and a Holosun from other projects.

Im not sure how I want to set up the sling yet. There is a QD socket on the back of the gun under the pic rail. That or buy a pic rail QD and run the back of the sling on the folding brace. I planning on finding some more compact iron and then run a small light off the side up front. Or maybe even a pistol light at 12 o'clock. Eventually I'll upgrade the red dot.

Overall Im quite happy with the results so far. I havent shot it yet but the ones I have shot are accurate enough to hit sihlouettes out to 150 yards no problem. Also it's not that much bigger than my Glock 17 while giving me far more capability at range.

20240226_131050 by chase, on Flickr

20240226_131117 by chase, on Flickr

20240226_131100 by chase, on Flickr

20240226_131151 by chase, on Flickr

20240226_131139 by chase, on Flickr

[MadAngler1]

Sweet set up. It would even be more compact with a B&T style telescopic stock.

As an aside, everyone thinks you need .300 blackout to survive these days. However, I would argue that most home defense situations could be dealt with using a 9 mm SBR or PCC. You aren’t selling yourself short with your set up at all, and it’s better than a handgun.

[georgeib]

Sweet set up. It would even be more compact with a B&T style telescopic stock.

As an aside, everyone thinks you need .300 blackout to survive these days. However, I would argue that most home defense situations could be dealt with using a 9 mm SBR or PCC. You aren’t selling yourself short with your set up at all, and it’s better than a handgun.

I've watched enough footage of people being shot a dozen times with pistols and still keep coming, to think that a 9mm isn't selling myself short. Not to mention the relative proliferation of cheap body armor. Rifles can do work terminally that pistol calibers can't come close to, more so when you take things like barriers and armor into consideration. Heck, I'd take a 12 gauge over a PCC for HD.

Something like the Copperhead would certainly be an improvement over a standard pistol though. But for HD, there are much better options.

[yoni]

I have a TP9 that I replaced the trigger with a flat after market trigger and that was a huge improvement.

As many here know I chased the idea of a .357 sig PDW and that was a total bust.

I put the TP9 in the truck if I am going a distance from home or office, but the rest of the time I just carry the 357 sig pistol I put together which gives me over 2200 fps . I don't leave guns in cars so I need my truck gun to fit in a back pack and carry easy, the TP9 fits this perfectly.

For home defense it is a rifle, for the added power it brings.

[FromMyColdDeadHand]

I have a TP9 that I replaced the trigger with a flat after market trigger and that was a huge improvement.

As many here know I chased the idea of a .357 sig PDW and that was a total bust.

I put the TP9 in the truck if I am going a distance from home or office, but the rest of the time I just carry the 357 sig pistol I put together which gives me over 2200 fps . I don't leave guns in cars so I need my truck gun to fit in a back pack and carry easy, the TP9 fits this perfectly.

For home defense it is a rifle, for the added power it brings.

Why no 357SIG in a PDW?

Body armour is one thing, the rise of 3-4 person attacks is another. That SIG rattler is interesting- and PDW as in outside the house and concealable? More in a bag or under a fairly heavy coat? Is that a pistol brace? I find folders more ergonomic that collapsible stocks.

[Defaultmp3]

You aren’t selling yourself short with your set up at all, and it’s better than a handgun.

Something like the Copperhead would certainly be an improvement over a standard pistol though.

What makes it better than a standard pistol? Outside of suppressed use, I don't see the appeal for any practical purpose compared to a duty handgun, given that it's not select fire.

The stock is so short you don't get much leverage and are also super scrunched when shooting. The overall larger package means it's much harder to use SHO/WHO, while being less maneuverable overall. The barrel length is shorter than most duty sized handguns. Deployment is more difficult and involved than a handgun if you're out and about.

I guess if you're a shitty pistol shooter, sure, the micro PCC will give you better shooting performance. But if you're a good pistol shot, the minimal advantage of a micro PCC seems to be outweighed by its many downsides.

[georgeib]

What makes it better than a standard pistol? Outside of suppressed use, I don't see the appeal for any practical purpose compared to a duty handgun, given that it's not select fire.

The stock is so short you don't get much leverage and are also super scrunched when shooting. The overall larger package means it's much harder to use SHO/WHO, while being less maneuverable overall. The barrel length is shorter than most duty sized handguns. Deployment is more difficult and involved than a handgun if you're out and about.

I guess if you're a shitty pistol shooter, sure, the micro PCC will give you better shooting performance. But if you're a good pistol shot, the minimal advantage of a micro PCC seems to be outweighed by its many downsides.

The improvement would be the additional points of contact for sure. That said, if you're a stellar pistol shooter, then any advantages start diminishing pretty quickly, and the fact that it would be slower than a pistol to bring to bear would start to hamper its benefit even more.

[SteyrAUG]

What makes it better than a standard pistol?

In general, additional points of contact for greater stability. Better platform for optics, red dots, etc. Usually higher magazine capacities and in many cases longer barrels (7.5" vs. 4").

Of course everything is a trade off, in general handguns are easier to conceal, usually faster to employ and in most cases a much lighter defensive tool.

Don't criticize a wrench because it isn't a hammer, don't criticize a hammer because it isn't a wrench.

[yoni]

Why no 357SIG in a PDW?

For several different reasons, first is feeding issues, second for some reason it just tends to chew up the guns. I spent a bunch of time and money to try and get it to run. I gave up and just accepted that my shoulder fired gun and my pistol will have different mags. So for real covert I use my TP9 and for a little bigger gun I use a 7.6sx39 Zastava which is only 19 inches long with the stock folded.

[Defaultmp3]

In general, additional points of contact for greater stability. Better platform for optics, red dots, etc. Usually higher magazine capacities and in many cases longer barrels (7.5" vs. 4").

Of course everything is a trade off, in general handguns are easier to conceal, usually faster to employ and in most cases a much lighter defensive tool.

Don't criticize a wrench because it isn't a hammer, don't criticize a hammer because it isn't a wrench.

The problem is the "in general" part. With a stock/brace that short, you're super scrunched up; I don't find that to be conducive to shooting outside of standing on a flat range with no movement, or possibly barricade work. As for being a better platform for optics, I don't see any major advantages over an optic ready handgun. If reciprocation is such a big deal, you could always get a rail mount, à la ALG 6SM or other open-gun-type options. You can't easily mount a WML on it except at the 1200, and then with as short as the handguard is, switchology will be wonky. The barrel is 3.5", not 7.5". There is no real way to attach a suppressor, given that it has an integrated flash hider. The magazine it ships with is a 20 rounder; pretty easy to fit in a larger mag for a pistol.

I'm not against small PCCs, I have a CZ Evo cut down to K length, and I think something like the MPX K is perfectly cromulent. I'm questioning the utility of super tiny PCCs like the MPX Copperhead that have given up so much to get to that size. At least with an MP9 or FLUX Raider, you can easily attach cans and have rails on more than the 1200. With the Copperhead, I'm just not seeing the juice being worth the squeeze at all; by my analysis, you're not getting any significant upsides compared to a pistol, have many downsides, all for an extremely niche application (civilian PDW use, but something like an MPX K or Rattler is too big).