The civilian PDW, my Sig MPX Copperhead.

[darin10000]

@yoni was trying to build one, but kept running into various roadblocks. Where did you find the barrel?

Quarter Circle 10 used to mfg 3 length of 357 Sig barrels; my build in 7.5". I wish I would have picked up more, but hindsight is 20/20.

@yoni... your mailbox is full

[yoni]

Quarter Circle 10 used to mfg 3 length of 357 Sig barrels; my build in 7.5". I wish I would have picked up more, but hindsight is 20/20.

@yoni... your mailbox is full

Sorry about that it is now empty.

[WickedWillis]

I don't know if I agree with that. I can hit a 100 yard IPSC target without much issue, maybe 3 seconds from the draw with my concealment setup, and I'm hardly a world class shooter, just a lowly high C-class open USPSA, if we're doing just flat range stuff. I think a lot of folks have way too low an expectation with handguns.

If you're braced up against a barricade, sure, I can see it being faster with the Copperhead for follow-on shots, but that seems such an extraordinarily niche role to have, to sacrifice everything else with the Copperhead, when something just a smidge bigger can have a lot more capability. I can fit a whole LAW-folded 10.3" AR into a day pack (albeit it does look a little funky), while people are throwing Rattlers into laptop bags.

Not my pics, but a feller I know fits his MCX Rattler LT (6.75" barrel) into a 15 liter messenger bag.



An MPX K or CZ Evo K is like 14" folded. SIG's website says that the Copperhead is 11.8", probably slightly over 12" if you consider the folding mechanism of a stock. For 2" or 3", you get way more bang for buck, IMO, with much more usable rails, ability to mount a can, etc.

Yeah the Rattler makes it hard to want to carry a full size pdw like an MP5, or apc9.

[SteyrAUG]

Yeah the Rattler makes it hard to want to carry a full size pdw like an MP5, or apc9.

K versions would be the more direct comparison.

[yoni]

The issue I have with the rattler, is when MAC tested it if I remember correctly it was only in the 1700fps range.

The Underwood Leighi Defense 9mm out of a 4inch barrel gets 1800 and if you go up in barrel length it is kissing 2000fps.

Keeping in mind that Jim Cirillo documented that things in actual shooting changed dramatically in rounds above 1900fps. This has become my benchmark and was part of what started my .357sig Leighi Defense fan boy status.

Darin was a lucky guy and got a blow back 357 sig AR that works. The company that made it no longer makes it, because it is just too easy to mess up a blow back AR in 357 sig.

[nick84]

I went ahead and went with the TP9 for this role. I'm quite happy with everything except the trigger, as has been well discussed all over the internet. It's like a 10 pound sponge, and on my short list of things to upgrade. That said, it's shootable, and using the stock makes it very quick to get on steel at 100 to 150. With the factory can it's reasonably quiet, and while it shoots everything pretty well, it groups 147's nicely.

IMHO, this platform and others like it, far exceed the performance of a standard handgun in their particular niche. I can understand the hesitation to splurge on entirely new platforms, if that's what holds people back, but the capability definitely exceeds that of a duty-size handgun. I don't have any experience with the Flux or other pistol frames or whatever they're being called, so I don't know how that compares, but the PDW/ K-type guns make a lot of sense to me for the "more than a handgun, less than a true rifle" type scenario. YMMV.

[yoni]

Get the Custom Smith flat trigger for your TP9, it improves the feel of the trigger.

[C-grunt]

I went ahead and went with the TP9 for this role. I'm quite happy with everything except the trigger, as has been well discussed all over the internet. It's like a 10 pound sponge, and on my short list of things to upgrade. That said, it's shootable, and using the stock makes it very quick to get on steel at 100 to 150. With the factory can it's reasonably quiet, and while it shoots everything pretty well, it groups 147's nicely.

IMHO, this platform and others like it, far exceed the performance of a standard handgun in their particular niche. I can understand the hesitation to splurge on entirely new platforms, if that's what holds people back, but the capability definitely exceeds that of a duty-size handgun. I don't have any experience with the Flux or other pistol frames or whatever they're being called, so I don't know how that compares, but the PDW/ K-type guns make a lot of sense to me for the "more than a handgun, less than a true rifle" type scenario. YMMV.

I'm a fan of the TP9. I haven't shot one in probably 10-15 years and have pretty limited trigger time on it. If I had found one for under 1500 bucks I likely would have bought it.

I might be crazy but I swear they were like 700 dollars around 2010 timeframe.

[yoni]

I think I got mine in about 2012-14 and I think I paid $1000 for it.

So my PDW niche is TP9 when it needs to be really small and light.

Zastava with a 10 inch bArrel for when it can be a little bigger and a little heavier and I need added power for 9mm

[m4brian]

In SOME scenarios a PDW in 9mm is THE option. Think a church - I do. I can train all I want and I may NEVER feel comfortable hitting accurately and safely with a pistol and not penetrating into a child, etc. Anything over 7 yards is a challenge when pumped. Here is where the PDW/PCC comes way ahead in the calculation. Heck, my wife who rarely shoots can hit with a PCC at 25m with no practice.

I cannot overestimate my capability. Not when I am responsible.