The History of Sig, Kimber, and Ron Cohen

[alvincullumyork]

Can you guys fill in the blanks for me with Sigs recent history, basically since Ron Cohen took over? More or less I am interested in the issues they've had with safety and quality control and maybe some more background on the issues I know of.

From what I think I know, Kimber went bankrupt but had a good reputation for high quality firearms. In some form or fashion it was brought back and Rob was the new CEO and quality went down, the series II drop safety was introduced, slides and chambers were overly tight, MIM fire control parts were used, and a host of other issues. Lots of new flashy models were introduced and marketing.

In 2005 or maybe 2004 Cohen moved to Sig.

The P250 air marshall contract went bad when the guns were found to be unreliable. Wikipedia says the Netherlands had a big issue with the gun as well and H&K and Walther both filed protests.

The Sig 556 rifles came with a switchable gas block but both gas ports were the same size.

The M17/P320 drop safety issue that was fixed for the military but was a voluntary send it back for civilians? I believe this is an on going issue?

Rob avoids jail time in Germany for selling pistols to Columbia that were manufactured in Germany. Ended up paying an almost 700k fine.

I guess what I'm asking for is just a little more background information on the issues above and if I missed anything?

[titsonritz]

It’s Ron not Rob.

[Coal Dragger]

It’s Ron not Rob.

Yep that dude is so bad at QC/QA he can’t even spell his own name correctly.

[titsonritz]

Yep that dude is so bad at QC/QA he can’t even spell his own name correctly.

But he turns out profitable pieces of shit.

[C-grunt]

The M17/M18 never had the drop issue. They used a different trigger assembly than the civilian P320.

[WillBrink]

Can you guys fill in the blanks for me with Sigs recent history, basically since Ron Cohen took over? More or less I am interested in the issues they've had with safety and quality control and maybe some more background on the issues I know of.

From what I think I know, Kimber went bankrupt but had a good reputation for high quality firearms. In some form or fashion it was brought back and Rob was the new CEO and quality went down, the series II drop safety was introduced, slides and chambers were overly tight, MIM fire control parts were used, and a host of other issues. Lots of new flashy models were introduced and marketing.

In 2005 or maybe 2004 Cohen moved to Sig.

The P250 air marshall contract went bad when the guns were found to be unreliable. Wikipedia says the Netherlands had a big issue with the gun as well and H&K and Walther both filed protests.

The Sig 556 rifles came with a switchable gas block but both gas ports were the same size.

The M17/P320 drop safety issue that was fixed for the military but was a voluntary send it back for civilians? I believe this is an on going issue?

Rob avoids jail time in Germany for selling pistols to Columbia that were manufactured in Germany. Ended up paying an almost 700k fine.

I guess what I'm asking for is just a little more background information on the issues above and if I missed anything?

Maybe first gen pistols had a rep for being decent pistols. They're a marketing company, not a gun company and their 1911s were garbage. I knew smiths who refused to even work on them. I recall Hilton Yam saying he wouldn't even use the slide/frame as a base gun for a build. Maybe they improved in the last decade since I paid attention to such things, but I doubt it.

[Det-Sog]

One needs a little history to put everything in perspective. Up until the early 2000s, Sig was completely phenomenal. Pretty much everything they made was gold. Even the ones made in The USA for the first couple of years.

Been shooting Sig most of my career/life. When I transitioned fro revolver to SA back in 1988 (yes, that old) I went with the W. German P226. Adjusted for inflation in 1988 dollars that would run about $1200 bucks right now. I made swat, where we carried 45s. I went with the W. German P220 for about the same price. Several years later, I made detective and swapped out the 226 for a 1/2 German and 1/2 American P229 around 1996. I carried that or my 220 until 2012.

Yes, everything you've heard is pretty much true. In the early 2000s, they switched from quality, to quantity. Obviously, quality suffered, and the rest is history. That's when they started making colored guns for every personality. What a joke. Business suffered and the rest is history. They've gotten a lot better since, but they're absolutely nowhere near back to their roots as everything coming off the line being top-tier. They are just another mass production now. With one exception...

That exception is the Legion line. In my opinion, the Legion is absolutely as good, if not a little better than the old West German ones were. Adjusted for inflation, they are about the same price. Remember, back in 1988 a W. German 220/226 would run you $750+. That was a LOT of money back then for a cop that had to buy his own roster approved weapon.

Freely admit I'm a fanboy, but I would absolutely not buy any one of their "metal frame" products that wasn't a legion. The P365 is awesome, but no... I still do not trust the P320 completely. 90%, but that's not enough. The P365 is my EDC and it is 100% so far.

My advice now... Save up and buy a Staccato 2011. If I was working and/or carrying for a living now, THAT'S what I would have.

[alvincullumyork]

It’s Ron not Rob.

Oh jeeze... I fixed that.

Yep that dude is so bad at QC/QA he can’t even spell his own name correctly.

Bwahahahahaahaja

The M17/M18 never had the drop issue. They used a different trigger assembly than the civilian P320.

I did not know that.

Maybe first gen pistols had a rep for being decent pistols. They're a marketing company, not a gun company and their 1911s were garbage. I knew smiths who refused to even work on them. I recall Hilton Yam saying he wouldn't even use the slide/frame as a base gun for a build. Maybe they improved in the last decade since I paid attention to such things, but I doubt it.

Yes I've heard that 1911 smith's won't even work on them aanymore. I have also heard the pre Cohen guns were actually pretty good but that's sometime in the 90s.

One needs a little history to put everything in perspective. Up until the early 2000s, Sig was completely phenomenal. Pretty much everything they made was gold. Even the ones made in The USA for the first couple of years.

Been shooting Sig most of my career/life. When I transitioned fro revolver to SA back in 1988 (yes, that old) I went with the W. German P226. Adjusted for inflation in 1988 dollars that would run about $1200 bucks right now. I made swat, where we carried 45s. I went with the W. German P220 for about the same price. Several years later, I made detective and swapped out the 226 for a 1/2 German and 1/2 American P229 around 1996. I carried that or my 220 until 2012.

Yes, everything you've heard is pretty much true. In the early 2000s, they switched from quality, to quantity. Obviously, quality suffered, and the rest is history. That's when they started making colored guns for every personality. What a joke. Business suffered and the rest is history. They've gotten a lot better since, but they're absolutely nowhere near back to their roots as everything coming off the line being top-tier. They are just another mass production now. With one exception...

That exception is the Legion line. In my opinion, the Legion is absolutely as good, if not a little better than the old West German ones were. Adjusted for inflation, they are about the same price. Remember, back in 1988 a W. German 220/226 would run you $750+. That was a LOT of money back then for a cop that had to buy his own roster approved weapon.

Freely admit I'm a fanboy, but I would absolutely not buy any one of their "metal frame" products that wasn't a legion. The P365 is awesome, but no... I still do not trust the P320 completely. 90%, but that's not enough. The P365 is my EDC and it is 100% so far.

My advice now... Save up and buy a Staccato 2011. If I was working and/or carrying for a living now, THAT'S what I would have.

That's a great summary.

[ABNAK]

One needs a little history to put everything in perspective. Up until the early 2000s, Sig was completely phenomenal. Pretty much everything they made was gold. Even the ones made in The USA for the first couple of years.

Been shooting Sig most of my career/life. When I transitioned fro revolver to SA back in 1988 (yes, that old) I went with the W. German P226. Adjusted for inflation in 1988 dollars that would run about $1200 bucks right now. I made swat, where we carried 45s. I went with the W. German P220 for about the same price. Several years later, I made detective and swapped out the 226 for a 1/2 German and 1/2 American P229 around 1996. I carried that or my 220 until 2012.

Yes, everything you've heard is pretty much true. In the early 2000s, they switched from quality, to quantity. Obviously, quality suffered, and the rest is history. That's when they started making colored guns for every personality. What a joke. Business suffered and the rest is history. They've gotten a lot better since, but they're absolutely nowhere near back to their roots as everything coming off the line being top-tier. They are just another mass production now. With one exception...

That exception is the Legion line. In my opinion, the Legion is absolutely as good, if not a little better than the old West German ones were. Adjusted for inflation, they are about the same price. Remember, back in 1988 a W. German 220/226 would run you $750+. That was a LOT of money back then for a cop that had to buy his own roster approved weapon.

Freely admit I'm a fanboy, but I would absolutely not buy any one of their "metal frame" products that wasn't a legion. The P365 is awesome, but no... I still do not trust the P320 completely. 90%, but that's not enough. The P365 is my EDC and it is 100% so far.

My advice now... Save up and buy a Staccato 2011. If I was working and/or carrying for a living now, THAT'S what I would have.

How about long guns? Sig has a reputation for just dropping a line of weapons, including support/parts for that line. That said, Sig is either A) fellating the right people, or B) has significantly improved quality to land these .mil contracts. The Sig Spear comes to mind, as well as the LT and Rattler (the latter being the choice for SOCOM's PDW).

Then there's the optic line of products, which (at least to me) has seemed to be steadily improving in quality.

[SteyrAUG]

One needs a little history to put everything in perspective. Up until the early 2000s, Sig was completely phenomenal. Pretty much everything they made was gold. Even the ones made in The USA for the first couple of years.

Been shooting Sig most of my career/life. When I transitioned fro revolver to SA back in 1988 (yes, that old) I went with the W. German P226. Adjusted for inflation in 1988 dollars that would run about $1200 bucks right now. I made swat, where we carried 45s. I went with the W. German P220 for about the same price. Several years later, I made detective and swapped out the 226 for a 1/2 German and 1/2 American P229 around 1996. I carried that or my 220 until 2012.

Yes, everything you've heard is pretty much true. In the early 2000s, they switched from quality, to quantity. Obviously, quality suffered, and the rest is history. That's when they started making colored guns for every personality. What a joke. Business suffered and the rest is history. They've gotten a lot better since, but they're absolutely nowhere near back to their roots as everything coming off the line being top-tier. They are just another mass production now. With one exception...

That exception is the Legion line. In my opinion, the Legion is absolutely as good, if not a little better than the old West German ones were. Adjusted for inflation, they are about the same price. Remember, back in 1988 a W. German 220/226 would run you $750+. That was a LOT of money back then for a cop that had to buy his own roster approved weapon.

Freely admit I'm a fanboy, but I would absolutely not buy any one of their "metal frame" products that wasn't a legion. The P365 is awesome, but no... I still do not trust the P320 completely. 90%, but that's not enough. The P365 is my EDC and it is 100% so far.

My advice now... Save up and buy a Staccato 2011. If I was working and/or carrying for a living now, THAT'S what I would have.

Would only add that Kimber began as a small shop making custom 1911s and was a victim of their own success. SWAT teams went nuts for the Custom TLE II, which meant everyone reading handgun magazines went nuts for the Custom TLE II and they just couldn't keep up without cutting corners.