9mm fmj and Doc's findings

[williejc]

I understand Doc's research on handgun bullets and incapacitation and am aware of the many disadvantages of using fmj ammo for self-defense. I follow his advice.

My question: If a criminal assailant received 3-4 center of mass hits with 9mm Nato ammo, can we assume that incapacitation probability would be similar to one such hit with the latest Win or Fed recommended ammo?

Thanks,
Williejc

[DocGKR]

No, you cannot assume that.

[Heavy Metal]

Doc,

Is there a synergistic effect of multiple same caliber projectiles striking at the same time?

Say a pattern of single O buck striking the torso verses the same group of .32 ACP in the same number of projectiles.

how would the two wounds likely differ?

[tpd223]

The probability of incapacitation would depend on what structures in the bad guy's body were hit.

[Eric Kozowski]

And a .32 buckshot pellet certainly behaves differently than a .32 handgun bullet. And, as TPD223 said, shot placement, as always, has a lot to do with the terminal effect.

[Ring]

a local CCW in a pizza shop just shot a robber holding a shot gun 4 times in the chest point blank with 9mm WWB FMJ 124gr.

the guy guy fell down, and then got back up, the CCW shot another 3 times, all 7 hit his chest. gun was S&W M&P

the BG ran out and another 75 yards down the street before droping and dieing on the sidewalk.

http://ohioccwforums.org/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=29852

NEVER USE FMJ FOR DEFENSE!

[WS6]

a local CCW in a pizza shop just shot a robber holding a shot gun 4 times in the chest point blank with 9mm WWB FMJ 124gr.

the guy guy fell down, and then got back up, the CCW shot another 3 times, all 7 hit his chest. gun was S&W M&P

the BG ran out and another 75 yards down the street before droping and dieing on the sidewalk.

http://ohioccwforums.org/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=29852

NEVER USE FMJ FOR DEFENSE!

Never saw any reference for 124gr FMJ being used.

ETA: Found a quote from someone who knows him claiming it was "WWB FMJ".

The bullet-hole in the window is further reason not to carry FMJ. ALl rounds hit...something musta gone a bit too far...

[tpd223]

"In the chest" does not tell us what structures were hit in the bad guy's body, which is the only important thing here.

Pistols poke holes in things, if we have to shoot bad guys then it's our job to put those holes in places that matter.

Having the bad guy run away and collapse is meaningless. This happens in the normal course of fights. I was on hand when a bad guy took a hit through the chest with a .45, this hit severed his aorta, yet he far from just dropped in his tracks.

If deer can run, often hundreds of yards, after being hit through both lungs and heart with such rounds as a 30-06, why would we expect that bullets of much less power will drop people in their tracks?

Ball ammo is not the first choice for defense, but far more important is tactics, mindset, weapon skill and shot placement.

Alvin York and Audie Murphy were carrying ball ammo.


Even when using high quality modern JHP ammo, bullets often exit shot bad guys, mainly due to the area being hit not having enough meat to get the bullet stopped.

Just sayin.

[TiroFijo]

[QUOTE=tpd223;349634]
If deer can run, often hundreds of yards, after being hit through both lungs and heart with such rounds as a 30-06, why would we expect that bullets of much less power will drop people in their tracks?
Ball ammo is not the first choice for defense, but far more important is tactics, mindset, weapon skill and shot placement.

Alvin York and Audie Murphy were carrying ball ammo.
QUOTE]

Very well said

I´m don´t hunt much since I prefer rifle/pistol target shooting and IPSC, but the first times I went hunting with friends it was a real eye opener on how much damage the animals can take and keep on running... one drops right there, the next runs away like crazy, even using a rifle the difference of a fraction of an inch in hole location makes a big difference.

A few times we shot at close distance at running feral pigs in the bush (domestic ones turned wild) with hangunds, several fast shots. I used pistols (45 and 9) and revolvers (357 and 44 mag) with non expanding bullets, and if you don´t hit them in a vital zone they keep going like nothing. The 45, 9 and 357 were about the same, perhaps the 44 had a little more shock, but nothing to make you even remotely confident about one shot stops...

[Ring]

easy ways to explane it to people is ask them if they would use field points or broadheads to hunt dear and ask them why.

1 punches a hole, 1 cuts a wide path

a buddy i varmit with decided he wanted to save $ this year so he bought 223 FMJ to groundhog hunt..

i told him this was a bad idea, he didnt believe me till he shot the same hog 2 times and it still ran away

he then went and bought some 53gr BTHP's heads and had me pull all the FMJ's out and reload the BTHP's in the cases.

every shot since hasn't even twitched after the hit and you can now hear the bullets hit with a thud.