Active shooter response w/ long guns

[021411]

I recently completed our dept's active shooter class. The class opened up my eyes. I'm glad they finally decided to make it mandatory for all officers. We NEED to all be on the same page.

With that said they didn't really dive into responding to those type of calls with long guns. Not everyone in our dept carries a shotgun and/or AR (must take carbine course and qualify) so I'm pretty sure that's why they didn't go in depth into those weapon systems. Right now my AR is sitting idle at home because the next carbine course will not be offered until June or July of this year. I do however carry a Benelli M2 Tactical in the car and have deployed it on several occasions on night shift patrol.

With that said (if you carry both), are you trained to deploy both at the same time? Sling the shotgun to your back and use the carbine as the primary offensive weapon system?

We also got into the issue of locked doors with no other method of entry. The SWAT officer/instructor basically said "think outside the box and do whatever it takes (SAFELY) to gain entry". I was thinking maybe breaching rounds? Patrol officers aren't trained in breaching doors but in a situation like an active shooter call I don't think they would mind granted we have tried everything else.

[joe138]

One of the problems at VA Tech was gaining entry. Learning from that we then placed entry tools into one of our line units. We also had training on breaching from our team breachers. I believe the standard is long guns for long halls. If all I had was the shotgun, I would take it. However, for me, the M4 is the go to.

[Drummer]

In light of Mumbai, and considering that an active shooter is actively shooting people with a firearm, responding with a carbine is damn close to mandatory in my mind. I understand that some agencies don't authorized rifles, and a shotgun is certainly better than a handgun. There are also times that you won't have a long gun available, so you have to go with what you have.

The bottom line is that responding cops (uniform patrol, detectives, whatever), need to have access to carbines. In 2009, there is no excuse for every LEO in the country not to be issued an AR15/M4 variant with optic and white light.

I am issued both carbine and shotgun but would not ever consider carrying both, even if just using the shotgun for breaching. In most situations where breaching is required, you'd be better served with mechanical tools, in my opinion. This isn't the place to go into details.

[021411]

I would have asked this in the LE section but I don't have the required post count. I have all other credentials ready however...

[bkb0000]

active shooter scenarios strike me as mandatory m4 minimum as well. at least SOME kind of rifle/carbine. one of the better funded departments here all ride with MP5s- i think someone was thinking cool-factor with that one, but it's better than no longish rifled gun at all.

if the asshole is walking around shooting people, he's probably got people around him and you're probably trying to not get that close to him. this is where a semi-precision shot is needed. sending a few 00's at him from 50 feet away proably isn't gonna be a good option in most of these situations, and neither is 9's from your 17.

[021411]

I really doubt our dept would ever equip every officer/patrol car with an AR. That's way too many. We have a few thousand officers. That equates to $$$$$$$$$$$$$$. The sad part is that it would probably take a tragic even to happen in our city to get them to fork over the cash for much needed equipment.

I guess in the mean time I'll load up on 00 buck and call it a day until I can quality with my AR.

[John_Wayne777]

I would have asked this in the LE section but I don't have the required post count. I have all other credentials ready however...

It's perfectly acceptable to ask the question here as well. There are a lot of experienced and well trained individuals who can offer relevant input on this topic that don't have access to the LE forum.

My 2 cents:

I don't think it's going to be practical for one officer to carry two long guns in response to an active shooter scenario. I think the most he/she will be able to do is grab a long gun of some sort and put on a plate carrier which will hopefully have some ammo for the long gun attached to it.

A shotgun loaded with buckshot is not ideal in an active shooter scenario, but if that's the only long gun you have I would heartily endorse using it. Long guns > handguns. While you may have to engage an active shooter beyond the acceptable range for buckshot, it's also very possible that you'll be close enough to make good use of the shotgun. There's no way to know what you'll be facing in an AS scenario so I suggest packing as much fighting capability as you reasonably can.

Ideally I would like to see every officer equipped with a reliable AR style carbine (Colt 6920, HK 416, etc) that had a mounted white light and an Aimpoint. Then a plate carrier could be rigged up to hold a couple of spare carbine magazines. Even something like an M1 carbine fitted with an Aimpoint and a light would be a good option.

Breaching is a tough question. As threats continue to develop what we're seeing is that while specialists are necessary, they aren't likely to be available when needed the most....thus it falls to the first responder to be able to be competent enough to get the job done. While every officer can't ride around with breaching charges in his/her cruiser, some basic breaching training might well be a reasonable goal. It might also make sense to have dedicated breaching weapons and ammo available in every supervisor or senior officer's cruiser.

The bottom line (as those of you who do this for a living know) is that when seconds mean lives it's incredibly difficult to ensure that everything you really need to handle an emergency situation is on scene when it is needed most. As the old saying goes, when seconds count what you need is often minutes away.

The most effective solution to active shooter problems is to have the would-be victims armed and able to shoot back the minute the AS reveals himself/herself. There is simply no better way to preserve innocent life than to meet a violent aggressor with lethal force the instant he tries to do harm.

[NCPatrolAR]

We are traind to do AS response with just handguns

[John_Wayne777]

We are traind to do AS response with just handguns

...which is unfathomable to me. Even the local university PD managed to join the 20th century and bought rifles with red dots. (Granted their equipment choices sucked, but at least they got the concept...)

Expecting police officers to combat terrorists and malevolent narcissists with a sidearm is 9 kinds of messed up.

[021411]

Although slightly disappointed, I'm not going to chastise my dept. The training we received was excellent. I learned and retained as much information as I could. They taught up to use what we had. Strength in numbers....Two guns are better than one. The more the merrier.
I agree 110% with you guys that having a carbine should be a requirement. I just don't see it ever happening city wide. I can count with one hand how many carbines are in my district on night shift. Yeah, not that many. That's IF those officers are even at work that night.

I need to call our SWAT division and see if I can get supplemental training on door breaching. I doubt they would have a problem if I can get a group of other officers to join me. Luckily for me I work nights so schools aren't open. However there are populated businesses that are open late into the morning hours. I can just see a SHTF scenario with those places.