Active shooter response w/ long guns

[jnc36rcpd]

lonewolf, the guy who says he'll go home if he can't get it done in forty-six shots will go home long before he fires all forty-six. In fact, I doubt he'll show up in the first place.

We emphasize that rifles are usually the better choice for most violent confrontations. We have a mix of personally owned and agency AR-15's. Off hand, I would say that most officers restricted to shotguns probably use slugs as their primary load.

I'm glad I have the rifle, but the shotgun is still a viable weapon. There was an Ohio officer who dropped an active shooter/hostage-taker at a rock concert a few years ago. He also went in by himself. That's someone who took his training seriously.

[CAPT KIRK]

You have to have at least a 2 man team to cover all angles. Running to the sound of gun fire as a citizen is crazy enough but the killing(s) has to stop. You are leaving yourself open if alone. I'm not saying don't do it but it's a HUGE risk you take.
As harsh as it sounds, I would stay back unless "trained". Let the pros deal with it but again, if the situation was still active, would you just sit there and do nothing? It's a choice only YOU can make if law enforcement isn't there yet. Just make sure you tell someone what you are wearing and what your intentions are and hope to God they relay that to dispatch. You don't want to be placed in the bad guy category.

I agree on your first point and 2 man teams are definately prefered. But if I am the first on scene, my backup is some distance away and kids are dieing, I will be going in solo, trusting God to watch my back.

John 15:13 (New International Version)
Greater love has no one than this, that he lay down his life for his friends.

As to your second point....... right on the money. If you are not a properly uniformed LEO or cannot be identified as one of the good guy in a micro seconds glance, then you are a DEAD man standing in front of me or my partners. The extreme degree of difficulty in Target Discrimination is bad enough on the streets, add in the factor of a school of running screaming kids and adults popping around corners etc...... OMG!!!! If you are an armed citizen in that scenario you had better worry more about the Trained Shooters mistaking you for a bad guy, than the bad guy getting you. When I am off duty I carry my M4 with me often, and in the case right next to it is my "SHERIFF" raid vest for identification.

[FromMyColdDeadHand]

Capt Kirk and 021411, even though I watch 24 and stay at Holiday Inn Expresses, I was thinking more about direct contact with a BG rather than actively seeking the guy out. You end up popping him and then you are the guy with the gun. I guess a little different than the usual bad guy shot after a mugging or home invasion.

[CarlosDJackal]

ND - sorry!!

[CarlosDJackal]

Many motor officers have long guns. MP5A3's are common and some agencies have found a way to get 10.5" AR's into the saddle bags, too.

How many agencies do you really know of who does this (I only know of one and they belong to a specialized unit in a very large and well-funded agency on the West Coast)? I would be surprised if the percentage of agencies that even allow this even come close to 1% of all the Agencies and Officers that we have in the US. Heck, what percentage of the thousands of LE Agencies in these United States even have a Patrol Rifle program that provides or allows 100% of their Patrol Officers to have anything but a Shotgun much less an MP5A3 or an SBR on a motorcycle?

While it would be great if all LE Agencies were arming 100% of their Officers and Deputies with such equipment. The reality is there are still quite a few who do not even believe in the viability or necessity for anything outside of a handgun and a shotgun. Most of the agencies in my immediate area don't even have a Patrol Rifle program that allows 100% of their Patrol officers to have Patrol Rifles even if they had to buy it.

Modifying the training so that it is geared towards the small percentage of Agencies and Officers who are progressive and lucky enough to actually have Patrol Rifles or Sub guns is not the smartest approach for an Active Shooter.

I personally train with my "Trunk Emergency Kit" as often as possible. But this this is on my own dime and my own time. Any official "training" (if you can call it that) is done with the handgun and the shotgun (specifically the Remington 870) because that is what will probably be available. JM2CW.

[Beat Trash]

My agency, and surrounding agencies have trained for active shootings since the Columbine school shooting.

Without going into detail on an open forum, it centers around a 4-6 man team, made up of the first 4-6 officers to respond. It originally included two shotguns. Now that we have a Patrol Rifle program, rifles can be thrown into the mix, if there are any on scene.

We have a small amount of AR's in the field at any time. These are stock, no lights or optics. While in an ideal world, I'd have a AR in each car, equipped with a light and a red dot optic. But one must deal with reality.

Train with the equipment you have, not with what you wished you had.

[021411]

My agency, and surrounding agencies have trained for active shootings since the Columbine school shooting.

Without going into detail on an open forum, it centers around a 4-6 man team, made up of the first 4-6 officers to respond. It originally included two shotguns. Now that we have a Patrol Rifle program, rifles can be thrown into the mix, if there are any on scene.

We have a small amount of AR's in the field at any time. These are stock, no lights or optics. While in an ideal world, I'd have a AR in each car, equipped with a light and a red dot optic. But one must deal with reality.

Train with the equipment you have, not with what you wished you had.

Excellent quote there.

[CarlosDJackal]

...Train with the equipment you have, not with what you wished you had.

A-freaking-men!!

[John_Wayne777]

Not as unfathomable as you think when you take reality into account. Not all agencies are convinced that they should be equipped with Rifles and do not even own any.

That is the part that is "unfathomable"....not in the literal sense of the word because anyone familiar with how government works will believe just about anything, but more in the "why are we still debating that the earth is round?" sense.

Responding to an Active Shooter with just handgun is not as crazy as an idea as it might seem at first. If you can equip 100% of your agency with rifles, then by all means, train with and deploy those. But do not overlook the possibility that you may not have the opportunity to put your long guns into action (not all cruisers are equipped to have long guns in the front where you can get to them).

While the deployment of the handgun is certainly something that circumstances may make necessary, making a policy ahead of time that limits officers to ONLY using handguns (what NCPatrolAR is referring to) is counterproductive. As a matter of policy it dooms the officers to use the least powerful, least effective, and most difficult to use platform in their arsenal. It offers the worst odds of stopping the active shooter, but the best odds of stray rounds hitting innocents.

It's one thing if the officer is in a world of suck and just has to deal with it...it's quite another, in my view, to stick them with the handgun when they do have other options available or could have other options available. Everybody may not be trained up on the use of the carbine, but for those officers who are allow them to equip themselves using their judgment (which has been informed by quality training) to deal with a bad situation.

[CarlosDJackal]

...While the deployment of the handgun is certainly something that circumstances may make necessary, making a policy ahead of time that limits officers to ONLY using handguns (what NCPatrolAR is referring to) is counterproductive...

I think you are missing the point, first of all his post read: "We are traind to do AS response with just handguns"

It does not say anything about policy against using long guns (which is a moot point to argue for or against unless you actually have a say in policy). I did not see a post stating that they could not use long guns (or did I miss it?). What would have been a lot more counterproductive is training Officers to respond to AS with tools that they WILL NOT have when an AS situation were to occur (God forbid).

While I am a huge proponent of a Patrol Rifle program (I am currently working on a Lesson Plan for an informal one for my Reserve Organization and have been pushing for mandatory AS training for everyone so much so I spent my own time and money getting my Patrol response to an Active Shooter certification from the NTOA many years ago) I would never train the whole organization to conduct AS response based on having a long gun present.

What I would do is ensure (if the "powers-that-be" ever see the light and let me conduct this training) that they know where a long gun would fall within the team at various situations. Just like when I was helping train my Army Reserve unit (who are now downrange - may God watch over them and keep them safe) in these types of tactics, we conducted all of it with rifles only.

As Beat Trash stated (above): "Train with the equipment you have, not with what you wished you had." Reality sucks and the reality is most of the members of M4C are probably better equipped to respond to AS scenarios than most LE Agencies. Any instructor who base their training on nice-to-have equipment are only doing their students a very huge dis-service. JM2CW.