5.7x28 fanboys are irritating

[WS6]

Thanks WS6 for your efforts.
Actually I own in Glocks 17,35, 24, and a 21, along with an HK Expert in 45. These wouldnt be all I own, just the ones I often shoot.
I am not trying to show u mine, more to say I appreciate accuracy and low recoil in my defensive wepon for carry.
I have had my 5.7 for over 3 years. In fact, I had called FN to find out if they were going to submit this pistol to Calif DOJ before they had been approved. So, I didnt just jump on the wagon after everybody else.
I know persons who carry the Advantage Arms Derringers for self defense. I never was critical of their choice, as I felt carrying anything will always be better then nothing.
My 5.7 encourages me to carry it every day.
I worked LE for a small agency in my area for 7 years. I carried a Glock 26 as my backup for the 22 (Again in appreciation of lighter recoil, despite having extra ammo for a 27 if I had carried that). I never liked the 40 for its recoil and recovery. In fact I had bought the 35 to shoot IPSC in my area to make major.
I also was the Rangemaster for that same agency, and I still continue to train and certify the officers from there.
Im not afraid of recoil, I just profoundly enjoy what my 5.7 offers.

No big deal, I just wanted to demonstrate as well as I can that I just didnt go out and buy a 5.7 for the cool factor.

Well you hit the nail on the head with part of this one I feel. If it is the difference between carrying and not carrying, then the 5.7 is a great round for you.

I guess my whole argument can be summed up by saying that while the 5.7 may not be optimal, it is adequate.

[Matt P]

For me, if I felt there was something better, I would have no issue buying it.
Right now, this is the optimal handgun for a defensive purpose for me.

I have always made the fact I have one for control and recovery, oh, and the 20 round magazine. I certainly realize its limited penetration. Im okay with that, Ill just make up for it with lots O ammo on target!!... Hopefully!...Be well.

[Alaskapopo]

Actually, with .30Carbine reaching the upper echelon of the 1900 fps range, and with some rounds exceeding that, it does take advantage of the TSC. While not as much as say a 75gr OTM, it still is able to put it to beneficial use. More say than basic .45acps and .357mags.

No 1900 is not enough you need to reach at least 2000 fps and then you need a bullet that frags well to take advantage of the TSC in wounding.
Pat

[Marcus L.]

For me, if I felt there was something better, I would have no issue buying it.
Right now, this is the optimal handgun for a defensive purpose for me.

I have always made the fact I have one for control and recovery, oh, and the 20 round magazine. I certainly realize its limited penetration. Im okay with that, Ill just make up for it with lots O ammo on target!!... Hopefully!...Be well.

When we yearn for justification for an investment we usually ignore the 800lb gorilla in the room which contradicts our belief. When it comes to a consensus, agencies with actual shootings to their credit with the 5.7mm, and ballistics experts like Dr. Fackler and Dr. Roberts strongly oppose the use of the 5.7mm over standard serivce handgun calibers and rifle calibers. There is only a small minority of agencies that support its use and they usually have limited field experience with it. The 5.7x28mm has been around since the late 80s and thus far its record has been a poor one.

I would agree with WS6 in that the 5.7mm is better than nothing, but in terms of soft target tissue destruction and rapid incapacitation ability the 5.7mm is NOT as good as the .38spl, 9mm, .40S&W, .357sig, or .45acp. I would even venture to say that a premium .380acp or 9mm Makarov "might" be equal or better than the 5.7mm from a pistol barrel.

Matt P,

The problem is that there is overwhelming evidence from not only field reports of the 5.7mm in use, but from the ammunition designers and experts in the field of ballistics science that tell us in great detail that the 5.7mm is not in the same league as the common service calibers. Simply put, the 5.7mm does not have a significant wounding mechanism to make up for its small caliber size.....particularly from a pistol length barrel. It does not displace, crush, or tear as much tissue as a .38spl or 9mm JHP.

If you are indeed interested in understanding what I am talking about, you really NEED to read and try to understand this document:

http://www.firearmstactical.com/pdf/fbi-hwfe.pdf

"Handgun Wounding Factors and Effectiveness" is an excellent summary on the concepts behind ballistics science. The 5.7mm does not fall into a rifle cartridge category.....especially from a pistol, so this document explains the basic wounding mechanics of the 5.7mm.

Interesting enough, the FBI thought that the .38spl and the 9mm were not adequate for a good duty/self defense caliber......so why would the 5.7mm be adequate? Here's a relatively short briefing on the FBI adoption of the 10mm which also gives important insight on the use of larger bullet diameters:

http://www.firearmstactical.com/pdf/fbi_10mm_notes.pdf

It is always easier to seek out information that concurs with your view point and thus get a pep talk. Even though it's hard to stomach, in terms of selecting the best equipment to defend yourself it's important to keep an open mind, gather all available research and evidence, consult the experts, and then make a decision that may negatively effect your finances and confidence.

". . .the amount of tissue disruption produced by the P90 bullet is less than one-third of that produced by a well-designed expanding 9x19mm handgun bullet. . . . the expanded 9mm bullet strikes about three times as much tissue as the P90 bullet at 90 degrees of yaw, and does it throughout most of its path. Thus, the permanent cavity volume produced by the expanded 9mm bullet is many times longer than that produced by the nondeforming P90 bullet. . . the P90 doesn't even come close to matching the wounding capacity of a well-designed expanding 9x19mm handgun bullet. . ....the P90 bullet's wounding potential is about equal to that of the 22 Winchester rimfire magnum bullet." -Martin Fackler MD in a briefing to the FBI(1994)

"....the more recent development of deforming and fragmenting projectiles for the P90 still does not give it a terminal effects edge over a well-designed 9x19mm handgun bullet. The permanent cavity volume of these projectiles are still roughly half that of a modernized 9x19mm JHP. It is particularly concerning that the use of the P90 is marketed as a close ranged weapon system. In close quarters shootings it is especially important to achieve rapid incapacitation of which the 5.7x28mm in all its loadings cannot achieve without an uncanny attention to shot placement. Such placement is often difficult to achieve in the chaos of a dynamic conflict unless a high volume of fire is expended into vital regions of the body." -Martin Fackler MD in a briefing to the FBI(1999)

Lastly, in most shootings.....whether they be citizen self defense, LEO, or military engagements. It is rare that a bad guy will present the vital regions of his body for repeated hits. The 5.7mm is very dependent on precision hits due to its small wounding volume. Targets of opportunity are often brief and in the majority of shootings the COM region of the body is only hit one or two times even though over 15rds were expended. This means that the majority of hits to a perp are not COM, and larger projectiles are more likely to hit a major artery or cripple the perp by cutting a tendon or breaking a major bone. The 1994 Canadian ballistics study, and the FBI 1993 Wound Ballistics Seminar both demonstrated that large, heavy projectiles were superior to light and fast projectiles at breaking through thick bones of the body. In the FBI study Dr. Lane demonstrated this. Dr. Lane is an orthopedic surgeon, he and Ted Hollabaugh performed testing where swine femurs were inserted into 8.5" blocks of 10% gel and then were shot with 9 mm 115 gr JHP and 147 gr JHP loads, as well as .45 ACP 230 gr JHP projectiles. The high speed video of the experiment shots demonstrated that the .45 ACP shots created significantly more damage to the bone and were the only ones to penetrate all the way through the bone and gel block, while all the 9 mm loads were stopped by the bone and failed to penetrate through the bone. Dr. Lane also presented a variety of handgun wounds to human limbs that he had treated. The proceedings of the conference have been published by the FBI.

Even COM hits are not a guarentee stop or kill on a perp. A COM hit that goes through the torso coming close to the heart can take many minutes to have any noticable effect on a determined perp such as what happened to Michael Platt who had his lung shot out and the 9mm bullet rested 1" from his heart. He continued to fight on and kill two FBI agents before he was taken down by further hits to the torso. A small caliber wound volume may have good placement in the torso, but if it doesn't hit anything important its effects will be minor and non incapacitating. 1" off the aorta with a small caliber and there is limited blood loss, and you have to wait for a tension pneumothorax or other condition that takes many minutes to have effect. However, a larger caliber with a larger wound volume placed in the exact same location will cut out a larger swath of tissue and take out that aorta causing rapid blood loss and incapacitation in as quick a manner as possible short of a CNS hit(which is also easier to achieve with a larger caliber). This is why larger calibers have an edge in wounding..........this is also very evident in hunting game. High velocity rifle calibers such as a Weatherby magnum work by using extensive temporary stretch cavity(to the point of tearing it open) and fragmentation. However, such effects are not present in a caliber that generates anything under 1000-1500ft-lbs of energy at the muzzle.

There is a big difference between specuation on a caliber's effectiveness, and actually gathering documentation and field experience with it. When the lives of you and your family are on the line......why would you go with equipment that has "questionable" effects and has a mediocre track record? There is no silver metal for finishing second in a deadly force encounter.

[Matt P]

Marcus, what an incredible post to make. I thank you for your time and efforts. I am in some ways humbled by yours and other efforts to bring me to the light as you and others see it.
Since I no longer work in Law Enforcement, my needs for a cartridge have changed.
If I was easily swayed by others opinions, I wouldnt dress the way I do, much less conduct myself as I do in life.
As we grow up, we hopefully develop a clearer sense of who we are and the value our sense of things has for guiding us through life successfully.
Just as you demostrated with your post, its important for you to in a small way to be that voice for clearer understanding as it relates to this thread, and my responses.
You feel your opinion has merit, and should be easily understood and accepted.
Just as profoundly you feel about your opinion being the right one, should I not feel the same way about my own?
Your opinion is based on a number of aspects, life expierience, education, and possibly other factors.
Trust me Marcus, mine is no different. I may not be able to support my opinion to a degree that you have tried to do so, but that shouldnt make mine less valuable to me.
I appreciate your effort to examine some events and the cartidges used. I accept that if all things relative, and all shots being placed equally, a bigger bullet will just about always be better.
On the whole, the larger cals are better. I have always understood this.

I havent relied on actual events, or other things read, to help me form my opinion with this cartridge.
It came about from my own expieriences shooting, hunting, and other factors.

Im not dismissing what you and others typed, I just have formed my own opinion. I have lived to be 46 years old using my way of thinking. I pretty comfortable being that guy who just cant seem to get it, as you see it.

For me, how come no one else gets it?.....lol

Thanks again. And I do appreciate that many of you havent been unkind to this upstart new member unwilling to listen to the collective minds of this fantastic forum.

Have a wonderful and safe day guys!

[Marcus L.]

Good reply, Matt P. I just like to lay out as much information as possible and hope that people take it in. Whether you accept it or not is up to you......but I just hope that people read and attempt to understand the point.

If the 5.7mm is what you feel like you want to carry, then get yourself some good quality JHP/SP in a heavier bullet weight and practice. Make good decisions on avoidance of conflict, and seize any and all advantages you can on an opponent should things get ugly. If I had to choose between a partner that was constantly practicing good officer safety skills, was on the alert, and carried a FN 57 versus a officer that carried around a MP-5 and was always in the white.......I'd take the officer with the 57.

Good luck with your choice, use quality deforming ammunition, and get to the range at least once a month and practice.

[Matt P]

My friend, I shoot about 300 bbs a day here at my shot with Airsoft Gas Blow Backs. I "get to the range" all the time. I can usually be found at the Peace Officers Range several times a month shooting Non-Mice killers.

Maybe I shouldnt have mentioned the practice I do with gas airsoft guns.. Now, I may have lost even more credibility.. If I had any to start with that is!!...lol
But, that topic I am a little better equipped to argue its merits.

If you want to learn more about it, just ask me.. It costs me about .0007 or there about, to launch one of those here in the comfort of my retail business.

[Fail-Safe]

It sounds like you have some varied experience with guns and Law Enforcement.

I havent relied on actual events, or other things read, to help me form my opinion with this cartridge.
It came about from my own expieriences shooting, hunting, and other factors.

You talk about experiences. Not to be rude, but how many people have you shot or seen shot with the 5.7? Experiences show that it doesn't work nearly as well as a decent 9mm hollowpoint and ballistic testing confirms this.

[Puffy93]

You talk about experiences. Not to be rude, but how many people have you shot or seen shot with the 5.7? Experiences show that it doesn't work nearly as well as a decent 9mm hollowpoint and ballistic testing confirms this.

Yes but a 9mm doesn't have nearly the range of the 5.7

[Zhukov]

Yes but a 9mm doesn't have nearly the range of the 5.7

Out of a handgun or out of a rifle?

Out of a handgun, it's a moot point as the engagement distances are short. Out of a rifle, the 5.7 loses to .223/5.56.