Page 2 of 8 FirstFirst 1234 ... LastLast
Results 21 to 40 of 146

Thread: Guns are dangerous. Federal AE223BK Kaboom.

  1. #21
    Join Date
    Feb 2009
    Location
    NC
    Posts
    351
    Feedback Score
    0
    Derek, glad you're okay. Was this your first KB? I hope I will fare as well when I have a similar failure, which I assume is only a matter of time since I shoot a fair bit and use lots of different ammo of occasionally dubious provenance.


    Quote Originally Posted by larry0071 View Post
    Just to admit, I do not know what the heat mark is from or why it is there, I just know I see it evertime I open my ammo. When I look at the picture a few posts up, I instantly noticed that the brass is a constant color and not the same as what I am used to holding/seeing.
    Larry, from what I understand the discoloration you mention is caused by annealing which is done for reliability and accuracy (it serves to re-soften the brass at the case neck.) After reading up on it, several sources indicate that a lack of annealing on the cartridge can lead to case neck splitting...

    What I have read seems to indicate that NATO-pressure ammo without annealing could be a contributing factor in a KaBoom. I could be wrong. If so, hopefully someone will correct me. ETA: Others have pointed out that lack of annealing can cause problems, but the annealing may not be apparent due to tumbling. Also, this case (no pun intended) does not appear to be split at the neck as is usually caused by lack of annealing, but rather a circumferential split.


    Quote Originally Posted by larry0071 View Post
    Lake City XM193 has the heat marking where the brass necks down, at least all the Federal XM193 and white box Lake City XM193 I have does. Why does that not have the typical heat discolor I'm used to seeing?
    All the XM193 (both F and otherwise) I have has annealing on the case-neck. I have on hand white and brown box "XM193F" as well as AE black box "XM193" from various lot #'s. All rounds I have so far examined show the annealing and LC 09 w/ NATO cross headstamp. Also, I believe annealing is called for in the original M193 spec (unable to verify this currently,) so I would be somewhat suspicious of any round claiming to be any variation of M193 and not having annealing. HTH
    Last edited by HiggsBoson; 04-26-09 at 10:18.

  2. #22
    Join Date
    Jan 2009
    Location
    Atlanta area
    Posts
    275
    Feedback Score
    0
    Quote Originally Posted by larry0071 View Post
    Lake City XM193 has the heat marking where the brass necks down, at least all the Federal XM193 and white box Lake City XM193 I have does. Why does that not have the typical heat discolor I'm used to seeing?

    Just to admit, I do not know what the heat mark is from or why it is there, I just know I see it evertime I open my ammo. When I look at the picture a few posts up, I instantly noticed that the brass is a constant color and not the same as what I am used to holding/seeing.
    Larry
    The "heat mark" is caused in the manufacturing process when the brass is annealed to soften it somewhat in the neck and shoulder area. Thus, a better gas seal is obtained and the case neck is less likely to split.

    Every time the case is reloaded and fired the brass, especially in the neck and shoulder area, work-hardens, so after it has been reloaded a number of times it should be re-annealed. But that does not mean that it needs to be re-annealed every, or every other, or even every third reloading.

    Some people who reload tumble their brass just enough to clean it up, in which case the annealing will still be visible. Others, including some commercial reloaders, like their brass to look all bright and shiny, so they tumble it more, which causes the brass to look like the brass in the photo above.

    I'm not saying that this is what happened or that the brass was reloaded. I'm just explaining the process.

  3. #23
    Join Date
    Jun 2006
    Location
    OK
    Posts
    2,385
    Feedback Score
    11 (100%)
    Quote Originally Posted by larry0071 View Post
    Lake City XM193 has the heat marking where the brass necks down, at least all the Federal XM193 and white box Lake City XM193 I have does. Why does that not have the typical heat discolor I'm used to seeing?

    Just to admit, I do not know what the heat mark is from or why it is there, I just know I see it evertime I open my ammo. When I look at the picture a few posts up, I instantly noticed that the brass is a constant color and not the same as what I am used to holding/seeing.

    Larry
    IIRC, the discoloration you're referring to is from the process of annealing the case neck. Annealing is (simplified) a thermal cycle to remove the residual stresses from forming the neck. I think the non-discolored cases have had it polished away for appearances...

    Somebody correct me if I'm wrong.

    ETA: Amazing how much can get posted while it's taking you an hour to type out a short post
    Last edited by LOKNLOD; 04-25-09 at 18:44.
    --Josh H.
    Zombies seek out and eat brains. Don't worry; you'll be safe if they attack.

  4. #24
    Join Date
    Jun 2008
    Location
    Louisiana
    Posts
    357
    Feedback Score
    1 (100%)
    Glad your ok dude, Keep us updated on what Steve finds.
    ΜΟΛΩΝ ΛΑΒΕ

  5. #25
    Join Date
    Jun 2008
    Posts
    2,727
    Feedback Score
    0
    First: Derek, glad you got out with all your digits and eyeballs.

    Second: Thanks for sharing with us. I've already learned some good technical information because you did so.

    Stay safe.

  6. #26
    Join Date
    Jun 2006
    Posts
    1,133
    Feedback Score
    0
    Incidents like this, as isolated as they may be, definitely remind me of how serious this shit can get every time the trigger is pulled. Its hard to rememver you have 50k+ PSI going off 4-5 inches infront of your face...

    Its humbling.


    ETA: I found the carboard box the plastic bag came in. I thought I had thrown it out already which is why I didn't have the LOT # info readily available. I found it in recycling pile. To my surprise, I do feel like an asshole. But after getting the box, I do have a question for Recobs, as to why they are advertising XM-193 but shipping reloaded AE .223
    Last edited by Derek_Connor; 04-25-09 at 20:12.

  7. #27
    Join Date
    Mar 2008
    Location
    out of reach
    Posts
    317
    Feedback Score
    0
    Quote Originally Posted by Derek_Connor View Post
    Incidents like this, as isolated as they may be, definitely remind me of how serious this shit can get every time the trigger is pulled. Its hard to rememver you have 50k+ PSI going off 4-5 inches infront of your face...

    Its humbling.
    Really brings home why wear eye and ear protection doesn't it? Glad you fared safely in this situation.
    Peace, Jerry

    I don't drink the koolaid

  8. #28
    Join Date
    May 2008
    Location
    Colorado
    Posts
    5,273
    Feedback Score
    0
    Quote Originally Posted by Derek_Connor View Post

    ETA: I found the carboard box the plastic bag came in. I thought I had thrown it out already which is why I didn't have the LOT # info readily available. I found it in recycling pile. To my surprise, I do feel like an asshole. But after getting the box, I do have a question for Recobs, as to why they are advertising XM-193 but shipping reloaded AE .223
    Dun, dun, duuuuuh. Just like the old movies where the plot thickens. Maybe you should have paid them in Australian dollars. That's not kosher.
    Seals lay around on the beach and eat fish. SEALs go to nice locations at all hours and burn shit down. - IraqGunz

    We guard our money with well armed men and our children with "gun free zone" signs. That's the priorities of the damned.- WillBrink

    If Obama had a city......it would look just like Detroit. -Jaxman7

  9. #29
    Join Date
    Jul 2006
    Posts
    1,151
    Feedback Score
    4 (100%)

    Wink

    The bolt and barrel or at least the barrel extension should not be used again, whether or not there are visible cracks. Both are pretty marginal to start with-- I mean, they are not exactly overbuilt.

    I know it hurts to give up a Noveske barrel. I suppose you could have another barrel extension put on it but barrel extensions are a little scarcer and 'spensiver now, plus the labor getting it oriented right and all.... and since the barrel already has a sh'load of rounds through it...... I think it's barrel-o'clock.

    And you can get that feedramp thing taken care of at the same time

  10. #30
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    Posts
    893
    Feedback Score
    0
    i read through a few times, but i never saw a Lot #

    did you not have any of the boxes left from which to retrieve the lot number?


    was this Federal XM193 in the brown box, or the brown sleeve w/strippers? or was it American Eagle Tactical black box? was it Speer Lawman blue box?


    glad to hear that you and you're friends were not injured. i know that its comparatively irrelevant, but glad that the rifle wasn't completely destroyed as well.
    Last edited by Parabellum9x19mm; 04-25-09 at 22:36.
    TUEBOR

  11. #31
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Location
    VA
    Posts
    7,503
    Feedback Score
    12 (100%)
    Quote Originally Posted by Ned Christiansen View Post
    The bolt and barrel or at least the barrel extension should not be used again, whether or not there are visible cracks. Both are pretty marginal to start with-- I mean, they are not exactly overbuilt.

    I know it hurts to give up a Noveske barrel. I suppose you could have another barrel extension put on it but barrel extensions are a little scarcer and 'spensiver now, plus the labor getting it oriented right and all.... and since the barrel already has a sh'load of rounds through it...... I think it's barrel-o'clock.

    And you can get that feedramp thing taken care of at the same time
    We are lucky to have you on the forum. Good stuff, Ned.

  12. #32
    Join Date
    Jun 2008
    Posts
    427
    Feedback Score
    0
    Glad your ok, I have had one kaboom and it scared the shit out of me! Just to be shure what I read, it was reloaded ammo and not xm 193 right?

    By the way not related, but your bolt looks dry as heck. Did you clean it after the kaboom?

  13. #33
    Join Date
    Jul 2006
    Location
    Midwest, USA
    Posts
    6,161
    Feedback Score
    0
    There are scattered reports of some hot recent production XM193 out and about. Two weeks ago, one case was popping primers...in a known-good 5.56 chamber. Others reported shooting older stuff, then switching to the newer, and finding a palpable difference in report.

    In the past, XM193 has shown excessive pressures with enough consistency to warrant warnings from some noteworthies. "Nearly a proof load in every box" was a description offered up.

    Caveat emptor. It's _X_M193 for a reason.

    All that being said, those rounds like odd. In umpteen thousand, I've never seen an XM193 that wasn't obviously annealed, be it XM193/PD/F/etc.
    Last edited by Skintop911; 04-26-09 at 00:16.

  14. #34
    Join Date
    Apr 2009
    Posts
    169
    Feedback Score
    0
    +1 for being ok!

  15. #35
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Posts
    285
    Feedback Score
    0
    Nevermind.
    Last edited by 8200rpm; 04-26-09 at 01:36.

  16. #36
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    AZ
    Posts
    2,626
    Feedback Score
    0
    Yowza glad all is ok with your body parts. The brass does not appear to be annealed but it may be the pics?

  17. #37
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    Location
    FL
    Posts
    7,798
    Feedback Score
    23 (100%)
    Quote Originally Posted by Derek_Connor View Post
    To Summarize, after the kaboom, this is what seems have survived:

    Bolt Carrier
    Upper
    Lower
    Pmag
    Bolt
    Hell, I just think it's awesome that a Pmag survived a kB. Most mags involved in a kB wind up looking like a smashed slinky surrounded by rounds and a flattened beer can stuck in the magwell.
    Jack Leuba
    Military/Government Product Liaison
    Knight's Armament Company
    jleuba@knightarmco.com

    Director of Training

    Jack@F2SConsulting.com
    F2SConsulting.com | FB@ Facebook.com/F2SConsultingLLC
    As accurate as needed, as fast as possible, as many times as it takes.

  18. #38
    Join Date
    Jun 2006
    Posts
    1,133
    Feedback Score
    0
    To clear some things up, and finalize what ammo this is, it is not XM193.

    When I purchased this ammo from Recob's, the part # being "XM-193" was what I was basing my purchase off of. My discussion with Recob's 2 evenings ago, he was under the assumption this was real XM-193.

    Whether this is an honest mistake or not, I am not sure. But if his website would have had it in big black letters "AE223 RELOADED AMMO" I would have skipped out on buying this ammo.

    But this ammo, after simple research, is:


    AE223BK
    223 REM
    55 GR METAL CASE
    AMERICAN EAGLE RIFLE CARTRIDGES

    LOT # 357Z470

    And after hearing Todd K @ Noveske and Ned C of Michiguns both post concerns about the bbl extension, I'll take that as a clue.

    Oh well - it is what it is. Being stupid is not advantageous.
    Last edited by Derek_Connor; 04-26-09 at 06:24.

  19. #39
    Join Date
    Jul 2007
    Location
    Anderson, SC
    Posts
    1,047
    Feedback Score
    2 (100%)
    Derek,

    Glad your ok. I know the feeling, I had a Georgia Arms .308 round KB on me once and it sucked ass picking bits of primer out of my face with tweezers.

    With the ammo shortage, I check any ammo I buy closely. I would not put it past any dealer to take remanufacturered ammo and repack it into a box like the Federal XM193 box. Lack of annealing is a deal give away.

    ***Also, when you get your new bolt, ditch the rifle extractor spring and blue insert and go with the 5 coil spring with the black insert.

  20. #40
    Join Date
    Jun 2006
    Posts
    1,133
    Feedback Score
    0
    Quote Originally Posted by Hootiewho View Post
    Derek,

    Glad your ok. I know the feeling, I had a Georgia Arms .308 round KB on me once and it sucked ass picking bits of primer out of my face with tweezers.

    With the ammo shortage, I check any ammo I buy closely. I would not put it past any dealer to take remanufacturered ammo and repack it into a box like the Federal XM193 box. Lack of annealing is a deal give away.

    ***Also, when you get your new bolt, ditch the rifle extractor spring and blue insert and go with the 5 coil spring with the black insert.
    Thanks Hootie. I do agree, my "inspection" was that I looked at the brass and it looked new. That is as far as I went.

    It will be interesting to see how it plays out, how Recob's and/or Federal replies. And this particular firearm was insured from theft/fire/and damage.

    So hopefully one of those three COA will pay off..

    ETA: Initial confirmation from TOS states that this AE223BK is FACTORY AMMO. Not reloads.

    If thats the case, Recob's is not @ Fault. I'll be going straight to federal on this..
    Last edited by Derek_Connor; 04-26-09 at 07:52.

Page 2 of 8 FirstFirst 1234 ... LastLast

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •