M16/M4/AR15 VS Other. Are we making rational decisions?

[C4IGrant]

I was helping AI a Hackathorn class this weekend and was listening to Ken talk AK's and the fact that they DO fail and break. This discussion coupled with some recent threads makes me wonder what the thought process is that people go through when making purchase decisions.

One of the things I constantly see and deal with as a firearms dealer is people setting up AR's for what they do 10% of the time (totally ignoring the other 90%). I am not sure why people do this, but it is nearly impossible to set them straight and get them to think about the "BIG PICTURE."

Example, guy wants an AR for HD, Training and Varmint shooting. The HD and Training part occupy the MAJORITY of the time spent with the gun, but yet wants a 20" HBAR in SS. He does not realize that this AR will be VERY heavy and long and he won't like holding it all day in a 9 hour carbine class.

This leads me to the next problem. The PERCEIVED limitations of one type of gun will make people buy or use one gun over another. Case in point, buyer is concerned about the AR15 being reliable when "dirty." So he purchases an AK/AUG/Piston AR/ETC as he believes that this is the more reliable gun. There is just one problem with this logic. An AR15 that is "dirty", but lubed properly WILL RUN for thousands and thousand of rounds.
So the question is, what situation do people think they are going to be in that they are going to fire their AR for so many rounds that it quits running????

Having spent lots of time talking to Active Duty Tier 1 and Tier 2 types, their common mag load out CAN BE 6 mags and NO pistol mag reload. Yet, we see Civy's at training classes carrying 12 mags on their chest rig.

Point to all of this is do not let PERCEIVED limitations get in the way of rational thinking. Look at the WHOLE picture (accuracy, weight, cost, size, aftermarket parts, configurability, factory spare parts, magazine availability and cost, ammunition cost and armorer support) before making your choice for a defensive tool.




C4

[sinister]

For the most part many folks will be "Pretending" and "Playing dress-up" with guns.

They don't know or haven't decided what they want or need but have some money and/or time.

[TriumphRat675]

Why worry about interjecting rationality into other folks' fantasy man-camp fun days?

This is a serious question. So some people (occasionally including me) like showing up to a range to an expensive class with all kinds of expensive war gear on and expensive rifles with expensive optics on them and shoot a bunch of expensive ammo at paper targets and hang out with former high-speed dudes and feel cool by association.

There is nothing rational about that in and of itself. It's not a good use of funds or time if self defense is the goal. Ultimately, however they justify it, people do it because it's fun. Why interrupt their fun?

Your two examples: the varmint hunter will figure it out for himself soon. He'll buy another upper if he needs to. Now he can do HD and varmint hunting with the appropriate tool. Problem solved. For the AK guy, let him shoot an AK if that's what he wants to shoot. Or AUG. Or whatever. Why does it matter?

ETA: sinister said it first and better.

[C4IGrant]

Why worry about interjecting rationality into other folks' fantasy man-camp fun days?

This is a serious question. So some people (occasionally including me) like showing up to a range to an expensive class with all kinds of expensive war gear on and expensive rifles with expensive optics on them and shoot a bunch of expensive ammo at paper targets and hang out with former high-speed dudes and feel cool by association.

There is nothing rational about that in and of itself. It's not a good use of funds or time if self defense is the goal. Ultimately, however they justify it, people do it because it's fun. Why interrupt their fun?

Your two examples: the varmint hunter will figure it out for himself soon. He'll buy another upper if he needs to. Now he can do HD and varmint hunting with the appropriate tool. Problem solved. For the AK guy, let him shoot an AK if that's what he wants to shoot. Or AUG. Or whatever. Why does it matter?

ETA: sinister said it first and better.

I am a big fan of nice glass, guns and gear. The problem is that many people do NOT have the finances to buy one of everything and end up making poor choices with the money the do have.

My post was intended to save them from themselves (or at least try).




C4

[RGoose]

C4 makes a great point. A LOT of people are under educated when it comes to purchases and gear. To the first point in counter arguing the AR vs AK "gun-ism": the AR is much more reliable than you think, and the AK is more accurate than you think. There is no end all be all rifle, choose the correct tool for the job. When I hear people describing what they want in their rifle I'm reminded of a 7 year old when you ask them what they want to be when they grow up. I don't know about you, but I haven't met many "school teacher/pop singer/astronaut/veterinarians" in my travels.

To the second point; yes there is a lot a playing "dress-up" going on there. For those that know it; ok, that's fine as long as they realize it and LEARN something from the course. But there does need to be a dose of reality for some people. There's a bit too much fantasy and "gun counter" logic out there. I try to educate when I can without being condescending. You can lead a horse to water...

[Watrdawg]

For the most part many folks will be "Pretending" and "Playing dress-up" with guns.

They don't know or haven't decided what they want or need but have some money and/or time.

I think this is the main factor when you see someone in class carrying 12 mags, wearing full body armor, a helmet and shooting an AR with all sorts of stuff mounted to it. They don't really know what they need and don't have the experience to make that decision. After a class or 2 I would think you are going to see some changes come about. Then there will be the ultimate pretender who will always play dress-up. If they're safe and not holding up the class let them have their fun.

[DiabhailGadhar]

From personal experience... My first build was a spikes tactical that I some how managed to get upwards of $1900 worth of crap into. As I was building it I became a member here and I just started to read and read and read. I eventually learned that all that added junk is, just that, junk. Some people just have to learn the hard way....

[tog]

This is a topic I have wondered about and one of the reasons I came here to do research. To be honest, I fail to see where the civilian would need all the gear used by the military and I fail to see why one would need to carry so much ammo. In a HD scenario how much ammo is needed? There are not 100 people in my community. If you need to carry 12 full mags to protect your home then your doing something wrong today to attract others later if the SHTF. Like you said, the m4 is a light package and I intend to keep mine that way. This was one of the major points I liked about it over rifles like the FAL.

[Treiz]

I always start with KISS when on this subject. I find that it tends to resonate more with newbs like myself as they more than likely have applied the principle in other parts of their life. I start with that point of familiarity and then ease in to a more sane recommendation from there. Thanks to the valuable advice and experience on this sight my first build has been a fantastic success, and I intend to pass on that good will to others.

[MistWolf]

This is a subject I've thought about bringing up. Folks have several ARs in their collection, each configured with different missions in mind- CQB, SPR, RECCE, DMR and sniper. Yet the only real difference between each is the sighting system. Sure, there are differences in barrel profile, handguard and muzzle device, but these differences are minor. For all practical purposes, you could swap the Aimpoint Micro on your 16" CQB carbine for the optic from your 16" sniper rifle and do the same job.

Not that I have anything against a pile of firearms- I have different types of self loading 308 rifles and I could easily pick one and sell the rest, but where's the fun in that?

Still, a shooters could more effectively put their resources to use. Instead of selecting a battery of ARs based on configurations, pick them according to terminal performance. When viewed in this way, a shooter could narrow it down to two. A compact rifle with about a 10.5" barrel with an RDS for close work and a second with an 18" to 20" barrel and a variable optic for long range work. If NFA isn't desirable for any reason, substitute a 16" for the 10.5" barrel. It's not as handy as shorter barrels but it's still a practical choice. In fact, the 16" barrel could also substitute for the 20" barrel. It doesn't have the reach, but the real difference in trajectory doesn't make itself known until shooting past 600 yards.

One of the attractions of the AR is it's easy to set up to match the needs of the individual shooter- which is great. But what I find interesting isn't the differences in each of our individual rifles, but the similarities