My thoughts on DA/SA, LEM etc...

[Ian111]

Todd did a good job of explaining what I meant much easier than I did. I'm not for taking anything away from anyone. I just think I would prefer to arm those who don't care about making their own choice with a gun that takes a little more to deliberately fire it on the first shot.

That makes sense to me too. But also screams of the need to have such (non-gun) individuals constantly drilled about indexing and/or decocking before holstering as well. Whether Glock/M&P's are issued or DA/SA SIG P226's I just think its healthy to encourage the same level of discipline for safe gun handling. But further that such non-gun individuals be required to have a higher degree of training (if its necessary) to make them feel more competent and confident with their weapon with a heavier trigger, a decocker, or DA/SA transition so we can prevent incidents like the above.

And I think Todd and I are generally on the same page. We just may be acutely aware or sensitive to the knee jerk reactions by people who are narrow minded about this matter.

[Lumpy196]

So what we're saying is there are varying degrees of inherent "dangerousness" to handguns. Human interaction can't be a factor because humans are fallible and can't be trusted to be safe all the time. So it comes down to one gun being less safe than another due to the specifics of how the same mechanical goal of a trigger mechanism releasing a firing pin and detonating a cartridge is achieved?


So I need a handgun designed to protect me from me...

[ToddG]

So I need a handgun designed to protect me from me...

You need? I couldn't say. Probably not.

You might benefit from? Possibly. Depends on your priorities and the honesty of your self-assessment.

Some people want cars with no traction control, stability control, or anti-lock brakes. Why? Because they feel they can push the car to its limits without those things holding them back. Maybe 1 in a 1,000 people can actually do it, but many, many more think they can and thus buy cars that end up in a ditch or crushed by bigger, heavier, less fun, more practical, more crash-worthy cars.

Some people could take a Bugati around a road track in reverse while blindfolded. Some people struggle to operate an Accord properly. The rest of us fall somewhere in between.

[Charles]

I always find it .... Ironic, that the same people that like DA/SA or DOA for their pistols would crap a metric butt-ton if their carbines/shotguns had DA triggers.

If one believes that a DA/SA trigger is the answer, and will somehow prevent a fellow "officer" from "accidentally" jacking a round in their back, they are retarded.

Guns are for shooting. (Notice it doesn't say guns are to keep you from shooting)

I'm sure Samurai gathered around and discussed how it would probably be better to carry dull swords so as to prevent the idiots from cutting themselves....

It's far past time we drop this penny-annie "we have to keep them from hurting themselves" BS and get with the program.

[sigmundsauer]

I think, perhaps, a question to ask is at what point does a "safer" trigger unnecessarily reduce a shooter's ability to deliver accurate fire on command? Not everyone needs an M1911 with a 4 lb trigger to do this. Nor does everyone need a 12 lb DA trigger to prevent accidents from happening.

Personally, I think a traditional DA trigger provides an excellent measure of inherent safety that is still able to be shot well. Will it win world-class competitions? Maybe, but certainly not usually. There's no doubt that DA triggers can be shot well.

I think that good triggers (that is "easy to shoot") have spoiled many shooters. Reliance on a perfect, light trigger has never forced legions of shooters to truly master good trigger control, especially under stress.

It's not that I don't appreciate a nice trigger. It is very rewarding on the range -- able to shoot well with little fatigue. But I must admit that I can shoot just as well with a DA gun, albeit with more effort. I don't make a habit of carrying lightly triggered guns. The only SA, light trigger gun I am comfortable carrying is HK's P7.

IMO, general issue firearms (to soldiers and officers undergoing compulsory, basic training) should be of only two types of trigger systems: either DA/SA w/decocker, or DAO. I happen to think that HK's LEM with its 7.5 pound pull is the ideal trigger system that provides both inherent safety and shootability in the simplest manual of arms possible. It can be mastered and shot exceedingly well, but it is not as fun to shoot on the range in precision slow fire.

Does it protect me from myself? Perhaps. I prefer simple manuals of arms, and in my experience I cannot shoot a flawlessly-tuned M1911 any better than my HK's with LEM.

Tim

[Charles]

Personally, I think a traditional DA trigger provides an excellent measure of inherent safety that is still able to be shot well.

What "inherent safety"? Never mind that every single ND I have seen with pistols has been from DA/SA guns in DA mode, guns are inherently dangerous in use... Just like knives, cars, planes, and male appendages.

Does it protect me from myself? Perhaps. I prefer simple manuals of arms, and in my experience I cannot shoot a flawlessly-tuned M1911 any better than my HK's with LEM.

Tim

While that is absolutely true for the mass majority, I wouldn't use it as the proof that crappy triggers are the answer. Rather, I would say that is the proof that we need to stop being dorks with guns, and start being professionals.

[Charles]

Note: I'm not calling sigmundsauer a dork...

[sigmundsauer]

Charles,

You've gone too far with the name calling.

Perhaps my poor choice of words, and this is of course totally subjective, but my experience with DA/SA SIGs and LEM HK's is that their triggers are far from crappy, although I've encountered one or two that were. I've definitely encountered crappy 1911 triggers though. Just because it's single action, and/or light doesn't mean its a good trigger, not that you are suggesting such.

Just because you have only witnessed NDs with DA/SA guns is no indication that other trigger mechanisms are more safe. Conventional wisdom, by even the most experienced, has generally concluded quite the opposite. No one ever doubted or second-guessed the inherent safety of the DA revolver for decade upon decade. The 1911, on the other hand, is a professional's pistol, requiring more disciplined training. The only reason the military avoided such a high incidence of NDs with their 1911s over the decades is because they all but mandated across the board that the pistols never be carried with a round in the chamber. The fact the preponderance of NDs you've witnessed has occurred with DA/SA pistols has probably far more to do with the combination of their ubiquity in law enforcement and the meager training that the average person who carries them possesses.

I think the DA/SA and DAO trigger systems do represent a greater level of inherent safety. If NDs are occurring with DA guns it is because individuals are purposefully prepping or manipulating the trigger against all better sense, not because the trigger itself is more prone to inadvertent operation.

Tim

[The Dumb Gun Collector]

but my experience with DA/SA SIGs and LEM HK's is that their triggers are far from crappy, although I've encountered one or two that were. I've definitely encountered crappy 1911 triggers though. Just because it's single action, and/or light doesn't mean its a good trigger

Ditto

[ToddG]

I always find it .... Ironic, that the same people that like DA/SA or DOA for their pistols would crap a metric butt-ton if their carbines/shotguns had DA triggers.

• Carbines/shotguns have manual safeties.
• Carbines/shotguns are expected to provide substantially more accurate fire at substantially greater ranges.
• Carbines/shotguns are generally capable of substantially greater mechanical accuracy.

If one believes that a DA/SA trigger is the answer, and will somehow prevent a fellow "officer" from "accidentally" jacking a round in their back, they are retarded.

I'd say if one believes that a DA/SA trigger is a problem, and will somehow prevent a shooter from performing well in combat, they are retarded.

I'm sure Samurai gathered around and discussed how it would probably be better to carry dull swords so as to prevent the idiots from cutting themselves....

This is an even worse analogy than the carbine/shotgun comparison. Samurai didn't run around with swords in their hands, and no matter what they did "wrong" they couldn't hurt someone beyond the reach of the weapon.