Hi Guys. This is my first post (and first AR). I have a DPMS panther lite, 16" bbl A1 config. I got these groups at 50 yards using a 20 year old Aimpoint 3000 on top of the carry handle; PMC cheap practice ammo. The bottom right group was the best of the day. I think the red dot is actually about 2 MOA, which is bigger than the best group by a fair amount. Based on this, once I get some glass with magnification, should I expect sub MOA from this barrel? Tell me what you think!
Hey, welcome to the board.
This site is a fantastic place to learn about the M4/AR weapons system. Especially the "top tier" rifles. (See the chart located somewhere here)
There might not be a lot of guys here who know much about DPMS.
I know a good bit about DPMS, however I won't promise you that this is a good thing.
DPMS actualy has some very accurate barrels. However Accuracy is not always the same as quality. I have had two barrels personally that were out of spec. Every time they were fired I would get a bulge around the base of the bullet and many times it would stick and need to be extracted manually.
Barrel are 1/9 twist and not Chrome lined by default. They often defend themselves saying that this is an option. I personally think it should be the norm, not the exception. Especially on M4 barrels.
In addition I worked for a good sized DPMS distributor. Normal orders for us were in the hundreds. We would often get complaints about things. Broken stocks, etc, etc. Most were minor things but it brings into question the overall level of QC they have.
It matters far less whose name is stamped on the side of the lower reciever as to what you can do with it. Good shooting!
Thanks for the response
I sensed before posting that many members would have strong (low) opinions about the less expensive manufacturers. My next AR will be my own build, but this first time opportunity for an AR was the right deal at the right time. Possible shortcomings aside, I must say that...so far this rifle ROCKS...no malfunctions and great performance. I will eventually start swapping parts on it, too, 'cause I really don't care for that permanent carry handle. More to the point....whaddaya' think?...can I probably get some good groups at 100+ yards with decent glass on top of it, if 1/2" or less at 50 yards is now happening on a regular basis? Mathematically I think so, but I have not had to chance to try at that distance yet.
The problem lies in consistency. Some work, some don't.
"Do you feel lucky?"
I had a similar experience with a brand new DPMS rifle in .308 two years ago. Extremely rough barrel. In fact, the first patch through the barrel required a mallet to drive it, and it and came out shredded. I kid you not. Best 10 shot group at 35 yards from a concrete benchrest using a Bald Eagle front rest + rear bag, 36x Leupold BR scope, and shooting Federal Gold Match ammo was 11". DPMS replaced the barrel, without comment, but only after I showed them irrefutable documented evidence. Friends with DPMS rifles have much better luck, but this inexcusable, serious QC screw-up has soured me on DPMS.
I had a dpms which I paid $725 otd with a few spare mags to boot! It was accurate and reliable, though I only put about 3k rds tru it mostly wolf and brown bear. I sold it for a very handsome profit, not because there was anything wrong with the gun, financial reasons only. Picked up a Daniel Defense M4 when it first came out and even an inexperienced newcomer like me could notice the difference, I sold it also because my neighbor offerred me $500 more than what I paid for it so that was gone too...now all I have is a S&W mp15 and a colt 6920 but those I'm keeping !
It would be nice if someone would just answer the original question, IMHO. Look, i know how everyone feels about the brand, that's painfully obvious... lets just pretend it's not about that and look at the picture in the first post, if that's not tooooo much to ask...
I guess I'll find out for myself at the range next week. Excuse me for being frustrated, but the whole DPMS/Oly/Crapbrand-of-the-Month bashing is tiresome. There are lots of threads dedicated to that, I was just asking a simple question.
"Arguing on the internet is like running a race in the special olympics (there's that @#$% OLY word again)...even if you win, you're still retarded!"
Accuracy expectations are tough to comment on, but I'll try.
Any weapon will have a few loads that it will prefer to others. I would try out a few different brands, as well as bullet weights, and make notes as to what works best in your particular rifle. If you want to get the most accuracy possible from your weapon you will likely want to hand load.
If you are capable of shooting sub MOA (not the rifle, but you). The rifle will probably not hold you back. DPMS has received its share of complaints, but there have also been some nice reviews on their products over the years.
Optics will be another concern you will want to consider. If you want to consistently shoot sub MOA groups at 100 yds you will probably want to invest in a good scope and mount. You don't have to spend $1K to get a decent scope, but you will want an optic that has a reticule that obscures less of the target that a 2, 4 or 8 MOA dot or donut reticule.
As for the DPMS, Oly stuff, just try to ignore it. Everyone has their favorites and as well as the brands they like to bash. Enjoy what you have and if you decide to try something different down the road that is OK too.
Happy shooting and congrats on the new rifle,
Last edited by tolson68; 06-04-09 at 20:38.
Thanks. Nice to hear from someone sensible, who actually reads the posts and answers them. I have a Desert Eagle .50 10" bbl. with a Leupold 4X pistol scope on top. I absolutely love it and have taken numerous deer with it at 50 to 100 yards (never loses its zero either and that gun is PUNISHING to shoot), so I am leaning toward that brand for a rifle scope. Should be OK, I would think. Your thoughts?
Chrome lining does not improve accuracy in anyway. It is only there to help protect the barrel. For the most part it would actually decrease your accuracy.
DPMS uses quality barrels. One of the few things they do use that are quality. If you take care of it, it won't break. Seems like their newer BCG's are looking a lot better then the older ones.
MPI/Shot peening is useless in my opinion, but others will tell you different on here.
Leupy makes nice optics. The 4x would be fine or the new Mark AR 3-9x is around $300. My personal favorite for medium range optics is the Mueller TacII 3-10x. It's very durable, holds and returns to zero well, very crisp picture and can be found in the $250-$270 range. I believe they have a lifetime warranty, but I've never had one go bad.
Very good. Thanks for the input. I will check into Mueller. I do want something fairly compact with magnification out to 9 or 10x....might go flattop first, though, before putting a real scope on it.
I should have re-read your original post "A1". My mistake. I was thinking flat-top when I replied. I'm sure what ever solution you come up with will work just fine.
Best of luck,
I have very minimal experience with the DPMS brand, therefore I will make no comments on it's reliability or build quality.
Based on your statements, I would think it reasonable to expect similar accuracy at 100yds, and possibly tighter groups with the aid of magnified optics.
I think Leupy makes very nice optics ans that you would be very well served by one of their scopes.
I agree. And the prices aren't that steep.
Originally Posted by RD62
My first AR was/is a DPMS. It ran nice tight groups with decent ammo. It probably has more than 3k rounds through it, no issues. If it runs, it runs, and if it is accurate, it is accurate. Don't sweat it. I would expect you will see some really good groups with some of the lighter Black Hills loadings. (52gr match HP, especially.)
For measuring groups, you generally want to use AT LEAST 5 shot's. Do that 4-5 times and take an average. Also, shoot groups at 100yds (50yds does not matter).
Originally Posted by HelloMcFly
I would exect sub-moa performance.
Originally Posted by ckmark