This is not a 1911 vs Glock Thread!!

[DacoRoman]

ToddG-


You having worked for handgun manufacturers, including SIG who makes two different SAO guns systems, why is it so hard to take the reliability of a Glock and wrap 1911 ergonomics and operation around it?

What is at the heart of a 1911s trigger, which to me is the main reason I like the platform. Is it the trigger bow and sear set-up? Do the trigger safeties on Glocks and M&Ps eliminate that set-up?

Thanks

Well, I know that this will stir up great controversy, but Wilson Combat seemingly has created this "perfect" pistol that you are referring to with its new Spec Op Pistol or whatever that dumb name they chose happens to be. The idea behind the pistol seems to be a shot at perfection as far as I'm concerned:

- 1911 ergonomics
- 1911 trigger/safety
but with
- a polymer frame with stainless steel chasis
- a ramped barrel with a Browning short recoil tilting barrel action used by all of the modern pistols
- 15 round 9mm double stack magazine

Other than the ridiculously high price and lame name, to me this seems like a perfect amalgamation of features in a pistol. What am I missing here?

[Dunderway]

Not that you could convince a 1911 aficionado of anything I wrote in this post.

I agree with your post completely. The 1911 has just strayed too far from it's original design, and it can't do it all in one package.

All I ask of a 1911 is that it is reliable, has a good trigger break between 4-5lbs., and will consistently shoot within 3-4" @ 25yds. I am always happy.

I carry a basic Gunsite type pistol (trigger job, dehorn, tall sights) and most 1911 guys think I am antiquated or useless. I can build my ideal pistol for about $700. All I really like is the handling, trigger, caliber, and thumb safety. I am not married to the design, and would like to start exploring newer options some time just out of curiosity.

The biggest problem with 1911s is that newbs have been trained to dismiss a basic S70 which is dead reliable, but then get a $3000 super gun which is way beyond what the original dsign called for and wonder why it chokes.

If you want a 1911 for defense, buy a basic gun from SA or Colt, perform the basic Jeff Cooper mods and I think you will be happy. Or just buy a new Glock and avoid all of this old shit.

[IrishDevil]

But the reality -- and 1911 aficionados can correct me if I'm wrong -- is that the main problem with 1911s is 1911 aficionados.

Todd, you're 100% correct. I was almost crucified after saying this at a local USPSA match awhile back. It didn't help that I had an HK45 in my holster. One guy told me to ditch the "Nazi" gun and buy a 1911.

[R Moran]

I agree with your post completely. The 1911 has just strayed too far from it's original design, and it can't do it all in one package.

All I ask of a 1911 is that it is reliable, has a good trigger break between 4-5lbs., and will consistently shoot within 3-4" @ 25yds. I am always happy.

I carry a basic Gunsite type pistol (trigger job, dehorn, tall sights) and most 1911 guys think I am antiquated or useless. I can build my ideal pistol for about $700. All I really like is the handling, trigger, caliber, and thumb safety. I am not married to the design, and would like to start exploring newer options some time just out of curiosity.

The biggest problem with 1911s is that newbs have been trained to dismiss a basic S70 which is dead reliable, but then get a $3000 super gun which is way beyond what the original dsign called for and wonder why it chokes.

If you want a 1911 for defense, buy a basic gun from SA or Colt, perform the basic Jeff Cooper mods and I think you will be happy. Or just buy a new Glock and avoid all of this old shit.

I used to see alot of this kinda stuff on that 1911 centric forum. I don't anymore, not because it has subsided, I just don't go there anymore.

Most of the stuff that goes beyond what Jeff Cooper wanted has little to do with reliability, and has no effect on it.
Much of the money put into a $3000 dollar 1911, is for the hand labor going into it. Granted much of it is on stuff that is border line or straight up asethetcs. Hand checkering, straightening of lines, no seam bevertail fits, etc.

Many of the basic S70's were not dead reliable. Many of the basic guns lack quality parts, fitting and manufacturing steps. These may not be an issue early on, but over time may cause problems.
Its got nothing to do with features, and everything to do with build quality.

Bob

[dobe]

The Assault Weapon Ban did as much for the 1911 market as it did for the AR market.

Actually, competitive shooting did more for the 1911 than anything else. From Bullseye to IPSC, the 1911 did very well.

The problem with the 1911 is not just the 1911 afficionodos. It's the flexibility of the platform. You can have a tack driver, or a fighting gun. The problem as mentioned above, is that it is hard to have both, and still keep it reliable. Aother problem is that the 1911 is simply manufactured by so many different companies, that the mere definition of a 1911 has been skewed. Is the EMP a 1911? Most people on a forum would say it is. How about those other compact and sub compact 1911's? It seems that everything with a trigger bow and a swinging link is a 1911.

There are still some very good out-of-the box 1911's that are very reliable. Colt's quality is back. I bought an XSE 4 weeks ago. The next week, I picked up a P30. I shoot both every weekend, and clean them very litte. The XSE has been flawless. The P30 (while a great handgun) doesn't seem to cycle well with some brands of ammo. Dan Wesson is another. In my humble opinion, they are as good as Colt. I hope they keep up their standars.

I'm not married to any one platform. One of my favorite carry guns is still the P7M8. It's hard to beat for a CCW.

[Dunderway]

I used to see alot of this kinda stuff on that 1911 centric forum. I don't anymore, not because it has subsided, I just don't go there anymore.

Most of the stuff that goes beyond what Jeff Cooper wanted has little to do with reliability, and has no effect on it.
Much of the money put into a $3000 dollar 1911, is for the hand labor going into it. Granted much of it is on stuff that is border line or straight up asethetcs. Hand checkering, straightening of lines, no seam bevertail fits, etc.

Many of the basic S70's were not dead reliable. Many of the basic guns lack quality parts, fitting and manufacturing steps. These may not be an issue early on, but over time may cause problems.
Its got nothing to do with features, and everything to do with build quality.

Bob

Very true. But few manufacturers will step forward with a quality, while many will step forward boasting features. I don't need an ambi safety, beavertail, commander hammer, Novaks, checkering, etc. That is why a $700 gun without these features performs better than a $700 gun with them. I spend my money on quality, not flash.

ETA: I see it differently on 1911 forums than you have. Most consider a 1911 without a beavertail and Novaks as either a "retro" novlety gun, or as completely unservicable.

[ZDL]

Todd,

In terms of reliability, ruggedness, and accuracy; could a 1911, custom or production, ever compete with the glock in the same areas simultaneously?

[flyboy1788]

Well, I know that this will stir up great controversy, but Wilson Combat seemingly has created this "perfect" pistol that you are referring to with its new Spec Op Pistol or whatever that dumb name they chose happens to be. The idea behind the pistol seems to be a shot at perfection as far as I'm concerned:

- 1911 ergonomics
- 1911 trigger/safety
but with
- a polymer frame with stainless steel chasis
- a ramped barrel with a Browning short recoil tilting barrel action used by all of the modern pistols
- 15 round 9mm double stack magazine

Other than the ridiculously high price and lame name, to me this seems like a perfect amalgamation of features in a pistol. What am I missing here?

I agree with you, but I will not consider it until they change that completely stupid mall ninja name that it has.

[R Moran]

Very true. But few manufacturers will step forward with a quality, while many will step forward boasting features. I don't need an ambi safety, beavertail, commander hammer, Novaks, checkering, etc. That is why a $700 gun without these features performs better than a $700 gun with them. I spend my money on quality, not flash.

ETA: I see it differently on 1911 forums than you have. Most consider a 1911 without a beavertail and Novaks as either a "retro" novlety gun, or as completely unservicable.

Agreed, I would rather have an old guy 1911, built properly, then a modrn gun built cheaply. I would rather have a modern style built properly, though. Hence 1500 dollar 1911's.

I don't see many $700 1911's that are built properly though. Most Colt 1991's are creeping up toward the 4 digit mark.
I believe, the SA mil-spec still come up short in afew area's.

We must visit different threads, as I constantly see deragatory remarks like 'tactikewl", do dads, ge gaws, etc. when refering to the items you mention. One of thereasons I gave up over there.
If you even suggest that, maybe, just maybe the 1911 has seen its day, you would think you had a wet dream about the virgin Mary.

Bob

[ToddG]

In terms of reliability, ruggedness, and accuracy; could a 1911, custom or production, ever compete with the glock in the same areas simultaneously?

Comparing apples to apples (G21 to 1911), I'd say "yes" for accuracy & reliability, and "maybe" for ruggedness ... depending on how you defined the term. Throw in price, though, and the 1911 doesn't have a chance.