SAO SIG ???

[decodeddiesel]

There are many here who favor that carry system, Many of them also think it is okay to carry in bars and have a beer or two, go figure.

WTF does carrying cocked and locked and boozing while carrying have to do with one and other? That is the stupidest and most ignorant shit I have seen on this board in ages.

[ToddG]

The fact of the matter is that the startle response can easily overcome any DAO system. The idea that a DA system affords you some sort of protection over a SA is misguided.

Actually, the argument that a long, heavy trigger affords no protection over a short, light trigger is what's misguided. The claim always falls back on the startle response thing. But it's worth remembering that:

• Before they switched to Glocks, the FBI actually taught as part of their firearms instructor program that it was trigger pull length rather than weight which played the biggest role in preventing accidents from "startle." The reason is obvious ... the more time your brain has to receive feedback that the trigger is being pulled, the less chance you'll finish with the trigger stroke. A trigger that goes from zero to fire in a tenth of an inch provides its first feedback by way of a very, very loud noise.
  
• There are plenty of accidents which occur besides the ones caused by a startle response. Again, longer and/or heavier trigger pulls give you more time to receive and respond to tactile feedback.
  
• From a simple physics standpoint, it takes more movement to AD a longer trigger pull. It takes more pressure to AD a heavier trigger pull. You cannot argue that. So if someone accidentally moves a trigger a quarter of an inch, whether or not the gun goes off is determined by whether the trigger fires after a quarter inch of movement, period. If someone puts six pounds of force on a trigger, whether or not the gun goes off is determined by whether the trigger fires after six pounds of pressure, period.
  
• Claims that "it's all about the shooter" or "my finger/brain is my safety" are all well and good, but even the best trained and most professional people make mistakes. Ever hear of pilot error? The average commercial passenger jet pilot gets literally a hundred times more training on how to operate his plane than the average cop gets on how to operate his pistol. Yet those highly-skilled pilots still sometimes make mistakes. That's why airplanes have all sorts of redundant safety systems.

I'm not saying an SAO gun is bad. Plenty of competent folks choose them. But let's not pretend that fundamental physics ceases to apply just because you've got a 1911 in your hand.

[FromMyColdDeadHand]

Oh my God, I'm NEO!!!


Be interesting to rig a test pistol up with a pressure/travel sensor and see in various scenarios what the distance and pressure exterted is.

I just want something to stop the trigger from moving until I want it to move. Plus in reholstering in a more general sense, I like a hammer I can keep from moving rather than trying to hold onto with my finger nails those iddy, bitty little striker indicators .

Decoded- You carry 1911s and M&Ps, right?

[ToddG]

Oh my God, I'm NEO!!!

You must be so proud ...

[decodeddiesel]

You must be so proud ...

Classy...


FMCDH: Yeah, I carry an M&P9C or a 5" 1911 clothing dependent.

[ToddG]

Classy...

At least I didn't post the one of him lip-locked with another dude ...

[rubberneck]

Actually, the argument that a long, heavy trigger affords no protection over a short, light trigger is what's misguided. The claim always falls back on the startle response thing. But it's worth remembering that:

Before they switched to Glocks, the FBI actually taught as part of their firearms instructor program that it was trigger pull length rather than weight which played the biggest role in preventing accidents from "startle." The reason is obvious ... the more time your brain has to receive feedback that the trigger is being pulled, the less chance you'll finish with the trigger stroke. A trigger that goes from zero to fire in a tenth of an inch provides its first feedback by way of a very, very loud noise.

And yet they switched to Glocks and 1911's. I wonder what that says about the prevailing wisdom within the FBI? After all why would a risk adverse federal agency, like the FBI, open themselves up to potential lawsuits by switching to a gun with a much shorter trigger pull if they still felt that it was more likely to cause an AD/ND?

There are plenty of accidents which occur besides the ones caused by a startle response. Again, longer and/or heavier trigger pulls give you more time to receive and respond to tactile feedback.

That's nice, I was addressing a specific point made by the original poster, even then I am sure that we can come up with dozens of cases of negligent discharges/accidental discharges at agencies using DAO/TDA/LEM/DAK. So what does that prove other than you can have an accident with any type of gun?

From a simple physics standpoint, it takes more movement to AD a longer trigger pull. It takes more pressure to AD a heavier trigger pull. You cannot argue that. So if someone accidentally moves a trigger a quarter of an inch, whether or not the gun goes off is determined by whether the trigger fires after a quarter inch of movement, period. If someone puts six pounds of force on a trigger, whether or not the gun goes off is determined by whether the trigger fires after six pounds of pressure, period.

My point was that is you are startled suffciently you will have an ND if your finger is on the trigger. I think I can name enough examples of LEO who had AD's/ND's using those types of trigger systems in stressful to disprove the original posters proposition that they prevent accidents under stress. I'll concede that there are some instances where it might prevent an negligent discharge but I will not concede that carrying a SAO firearm is akin to carrying in a bar.

Claims that "it's all about the shooter" or "my finger/brain is my safety" are all well and good, but even the best trained and most professional people make mistakes. Ever hear of pilot error? The average commercial passenger jet pilot gets literally a hundred times more training on how to operate his plane than the average cop gets on how to operate his pistol. Yet those highly-skilled pilots still sometimes make mistakes. That's why airplanes have all sorts of redundant safety systems.

I don't recall ever claiming that it is all about the shooter or that my finger/brain was my safety and don't know why you felt compelled to bring it up as if I had. Every gun (1911, P35, H&K, CZ 75/85, etc) that I can think of that can be carried cocked and locked has a manual safety of some sort that must be actively disengaged before firing. The only exception to that is the XD which is technically a SAO gun but is, for all intents and purposes, the same as the DAO Glock.

It seems to me that a 1911, for example, has more "redundant safeties" standing between an AD than say a Sig DAK or H&K LEM. So I an not really sure I agree with your general proposition that a longer trigger pull without a manual safety is safer than a single action firearm with a manual safety. In fact I can make the argument that that a SAO gun is much safer before the deactivation of the safety and the DAO is somewhat safer after. What does that prove?

I'm not saying an SAO gun is bad. Plenty of competent folks choose them. But let's not pretend that fundamental physics ceases to apply just because you've got a 1911 in your hand.

Let's also not pretend that the DAO is the cure all for poor gun handling. As you point out there are plenty of competent people who carry SAO guns safely.

[Irish]

There are many here who favor that carry system, Many of them also think it is okay to carry in bars and have a beer or two, go figure.

WTF?!?!

[warpigM-4]

Thanks for all the replies ,Although I do not drink so I guess I would not fall in the " carry a weapon into a bar and get drunk "group.
I have carried a G30,XD-45 and a number of sig's.Just looking for something new.I Have not been able to find a range around me that has any SAO I can fire .so I am hitting the Gun store this weekend to see what they have ..thank you for your input

[automan]

I've had a SAO Carry for about 2 years. At about the 300 round mark, it started to lock back on the last round in the magazine, any magazine. The same mags worked fine in my DA/SA 220. Anyway, I got SIG to take it back and they replaced the internal extractor, in addition to polishing the ramp.

Haven't had problems since. Grip fits my big hands well. Recoil seems less than with a 1911 or my 4.4" DA/SA 220. Accuracy is typical SIG. What I really like is the ability to engage the safety while racking the slide while loading and unloading.

Do I carry it a lot? Not really because I have others I'm more comfortable carrying, LWC, G27 and M&P40. I actually prefer to carry the DA/SA 220 or 226 because I can unholster and get them into action faster. The stiff safety and shape/position of the safety seem to slow me down rather than be neutral or help my speed.

I've actually been playing with the idea of sending it back to SIG and getting it swithched to DA/SA or DAK, but at $200.00+...