SAO SIG ???

[ToddG]

And yet they switched to Glocks and 1911's. I wonder what that says about the prevailing wisdom within the FBI? After all why would a risk adverse federal agency, like the FBI, open themselves up to potential lawsuits by switching to a gun with a much shorter trigger pull if they still felt that it was more likely to cause an AD/ND?

Actually, if you're at all familiar with how they chose the Glock and then the 1911, it's not surprising at all.

The Glock came out of a procurement geared directly toward getting more agents to pass the FBI qualification course. The agency had suffered from lawsuits when various smaller trainees or trainees with zero firearms experience couldn't qualify. Rather than address it through a change to the training methodology, they changed guns. Then, surprisingly, they still had problems getting people qualified so they did end up making major changes to the training program and now most folks would tell you the Bureau has one of the best programs out there for teaching fundamentals.

The 1911 was typical tactical trickle-down. HRT changed from its Hi-Powers to the 1911 based on the influence of a team member who was heavily involved in competitive shooting. The gun they selected ended up being disastrous, so they switched to a single-stack. About the same time, the regional SWAT guys start complaining that if HRT "needed" a cool special gun, they needed a cool special gun. So they got the 1911's. Ironically, quite a few guys in both HRT and FBI SWAT opt not to use their 1911s both on- and off-deployment.

That's nice, I was addressing a specific point made by the original poster, even then I am sure that we can come up with dozens of cases of negligent discharges/accidental discharges at agencies using DAO/TDA/LEM/DAK. So what does that prove other than you can have an accident with any type of gun?

You can die in a car crash if you wear a seatbelt, but the odds are a lot better than if you're not wearing a seat belt. The mere fact that it's possible to AD a DAO/TDA gun doesn't change the fact that it is less likely than doing so with a pistol using a shorter & lighter trigger pull.

My point was that is you are startled suffciently you will have an ND if your finger is on the trigger.

And my point is that a lot of ADs occur beyond the typical "startle" scenario.

I'll concede that there are some instances where it might prevent an negligent discharge but I will not concede that carrying a SAO firearm is akin to carrying in a bar.

I'm not the one who made the connection between SAOs and bar carry. Those are two completely separate and unrelated issues imo.

It seems to me that a 1911, for example, has more "redundant safeties" standing between an AD than say a Sig DAK or H&K LEM. So I an not really sure I agree with your general proposition that a longer trigger pull without a manual safety is safer than a single action firearm with a manual safety. In fact I can make the argument that that a SAO gun is much safer before the deactivation of the safety and the DAO is somewhat safer after. What does that prove?

I agree with that assessment 100%. I think manual safeties on pistols are good as long as they're ergonomic, like the 1911's. Even better are the manual safeties you can get on, e.g., the M&P45 and HK45 and SIG SAOs because they allow you to handle the gun administratively (load, unload, etc.) with the safety engaged.

However, most folks are taught to disengage the safety as part of the presentation from the holster, and I know far too many shooters (and instructors) who then believe the safety should stay disengaged until the gun is ready to go back into the holster. So from draw to reholster, there is, effectively, no safety on the gun if you're following that doctrine. (I don't ... I'm also a big fan of decocking a DA/SA gun as soon as I bring it back to ready, too)

Let's also not pretend that the DAO is the cure all for poor gun handling. As you point out there are plenty of competent people who carry SAO guns safely.

Again, never said it was a cure-all. It is definitely a cure-some, though.

[rubberneck]

Actually, if you're at all familiar with how they chose the Glock and then the 1911, it's not surprising at all.

The Glock came out of a procurement geared directly toward getting more agents to pass the FBI qualification course. The agency had suffered from lawsuits when various smaller trainees or trainees with zero firearms experience couldn't qualify. Rather than address it through a change to the training methodology, they changed guns. Then, surprisingly, they still had problems getting people qualified so they did end up making major changes to the training program and now most folks would tell you the Bureau has one of the best programs out there for teaching fundamentals.

The 1911 was typical tactical trickle-down. HRT changed from its Hi-Powers to the 1911 based on the influence of a team member who was heavily involved in competitive shooting. The gun they selected ended up being disastrous, so they switched to a single-stack. About the same time, the regional SWAT guys start complaining that if HRT "needed" a cool special gun, they needed a cool special gun. So they got the 1911's. Ironically, quite a few guys in both HRT and FBI SWAT opt not to use their 1911s both on- and off-deployment.

So you are saying the fear of being sued over trainees failing to qualify was greater than the fear of being sued over choosing a platform that by their own admission was more likely to cause accidents. That makes no sense to anyone with half a brain and yet I am supposed to take at face value their position on length of trigger pull. Over the decades the FBI has been wrong far more often than they have been right when it comes to firearms. Excuse me if I don't put as much value in their opinion as you seem to.

You can die in a car crash if you wear a seatbelt, but the odds are a lot better than if you're not wearing a seat belt. The mere fact that it's possible to AD a DAO/TDA gun doesn't change the fact that it is less likely than doing so with a pistol using a shorter & lighter trigger pull.

I honestly don't even know how to respond to that. There is an order of magnitude of difference between the risk of riding in a car without a seatbelt and picking a SAO gun over a DAO. The difference is so great that I can't honestly believe that you would try and draw an analogy between the two.

And my point is that a lot of ADs occur beyond the typical "startle" scenario.

Try and focus Todd. No one ever said that there weren't AD's beyond the typical "startle scenario. I was responding to a very specific premise made by another poster. I did not address all the possible scenario's in which a gun can AD. I was only talking about the potential for an AD in a high stress environment.

I'm not the one who made the connection between SAOs and bar carry. Those are two completely separate and unrelated issues imo.

Believe or not Todd this thread isn't about you. For the last time everything I have written in this thread should be viewed in the context in which my first post was made. I was addressing a very specific point made by another poster. You somehow have decided to inject yourself into this and it is now all about you.

Again, never said it was a cure-all. It is definitely a cure-some, though.

See above.

[ToddG]

So you are saying the fear of being sued over trainees failing to qualify was greater than the fear of being sued over choosing a platform that by their own admission was more likely to cause accidents.

I'm saying they had a strong imperative from management to choose a weapon that would raise qualification rates.

I honestly don't even know how to respond to that. There is an order of magnitude of difference between the risk of riding in a car without a seatbelt and picking a SAO gun over a DAO. The difference is so great that I can't honestly believe that you would try and draw an analogy between the two.

Dictionary example of "analogy" is "heart is like a pump." I'm sure you'd agree there is "an order of magnitude difference" between a heart and a typical pump. That's what makes it an analogy.

The problem you seem to be having is accepting that your SAO might be just fine even if some other system (in this case, DAO/TDA) has a certain advantage over it in some area.

Try and focus Todd. No one ever said that there weren't AD's beyond the typical "startle scenario. I was responding to a very specific premise made by another poster. I did not address all the possible scenario's in which a gun can AD. I was only talking about the potential for an AD in a high stress environment.

This was what you said in your original post, in addition to the 'startle' comments:

The idea that a DA system affords you some sort of protection over a SA is misguided.

I have since explained a number of ways in which a DA systems affords "some sort of protection" over a SA. That's all. Don't take disagreements so personally. We're all adults here and should be able to have discussions without getting butt hurt.

Believe or not Todd this thread isn't about you. For the last time everything I have written in this thread should be viewed in the context in which my first post was made. I was addressing a very specific point made by another poster. You somehow have decided to inject yourself into this and it is now all about you.

My bad, I thought this was a discussion forum. Apparently, you talking about your opinion was ok, but when I did the same I "interjected" myself.

This might help:

[Irish]

^ That's funny

[slustan]

Is that form copyright protected or can I print out a few and bring them into work?

[FromMyColdDeadHand]

Is that form copyright protected or can I print out a few and bring them into work?

Real Man wouldn't have to ask....




But back on topic, PugilentPorcine- looking forward to hearing what you think. I thought my buddies P220 Carry shot smoother than his Commander - it the Sig just is a but easier to hold, seemed like better contact, not that a 1911 is bad in that regard.

[rubberneck]

I'm done.

[slustan]

Real Man wouldn't have to ask....




But back on topic, PugilentPorcine- looking forward to hearing what you think. I thought my buddies P220 Carry shot smoother than his Commander - it the Sig just is a but easier to hold, seemed like better contact, not that a 1911 is bad in that regard.

True, just giving credit where credit is due.

But back on topic, I appreciate all the insight on the Sig, been considering one myself.

[1SFG]

You and me both brother. You and me both. If I'm reading that correctly, cocked and locked is apparently as stupid as carrying in a bar or drinking and carrying...

[civilian]

I have a 220 SAO Carry. Shoots very well and would be a candidate for ccw, but for the fact that I'm having the same problem at least one person has mentioned. With my thumb riding the safety, I am engaging the slide lock lever, resulting in failures to lock back on empty. I've been told that the guys at Gray Gun's have a fix, but my emails to them so far have gone unanswered and I haven't had time to call.