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  1. #1
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    Scientific Evidence for "Hydrostatic Shock"

    Scientific Evidence for "Hydrostatic Shock"

    by Michael Courtney, PhD, Ballistics Testing Group
    and Amy Courtney, PhD, United States Military Academy

    The entire paper is very understandable and is well worth reading. Some interesting quotes:

    Debates between bullets that are “light and fast” vs. “slow and heavy” often refer to “hydrostatic shock," which describes remote wounding and incapacitating effects in living targets in addition to tissue crushed by direct bullet impact. Considerable evidence shows that “hydrostatic shock" can produce remote neural damage and rapid incapacitation.
    Recommendations

    The FBI recommends that loads intended for self-defense and law enforcement applications meet a minimum penetration requirement of 12” in ballistic gelatin.[8] Maximizing ballistic pressure wave effects requires transferring maximum energy in a penetration distance that meets this requirement. In addition, bullets that fragment and meet minimum penetration requirements generate higher pressure waves than bullets which do not fragment. Understanding the potential benefits of remote ballistic pressure wave effects leads us to favor loads with at least 500 ft-lbs of energy.

    With a handgun, no wounding mechanism can be relied on to produce incapacitation 100% of the time within the short span of most gunfights. Selecting a good self-defense load is only a small part of surviving a gunfight. You have to hit an attacker to hurt him, and you need a good plan for surviving until your hits take effect. Get good training, practice regularly, learn to use cover, and pray that you will never have a lethal force encounter armed only with a handgun.
    Howard
    Politically Incorrect Self Defense
    If it is to be it is up to me

  2. #2
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    Please...not this tripe again. Take the time to read the referenced articles--they do not support the claims of this paper. For that matter, the clinical evidence and outcomes of thousands of patients treated for GSW's and hits to body armor in recent combat clearly highlight the irrelevance of this paper, as do the numerous patients treated for domestic GSW's in this Nation.

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    Paging "Pasteur"
    beware of the bearers of false gifts and their broken promises

    buckshot for bad guys
    birdshot for birdies
    repeat

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    Nominating this one for thread lock:

    This has been amply discussed on other threads right in this very forum...if we have to slog through another nine page epic battle about this stuff I'm going to run out of Rolaids.

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    Wow! Two PhDs publishing peer reviewed papers in respected journals and it's all tripe. Go figure.

    Thirty-nine (39) referenced papers for this article and I'm to conclude that they all refute the author's position. Probably not, since many of them are by the same two authors on related subjects that develop the arguments and describe the experiments.

    I guess I am to believe that the United States Military Academy at West Point is not too careful about the credentials of those they choose to lecture there.

    I come from a scientific/engineering background and am used to passionate academic disagreements. So far, I've not seen any cogent arguments that disprove the author's position. Closing the thread to terminate the discussion is the bullies way out.
    Howard
    Politically Incorrect Self Defense
    If it is to be it is up to me

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    Quote Originally Posted by HowardCohodas View Post
    I come from a scientific/engineering background and am used to passionate academic disagreements.
    So you're an academic?

    Where do you teach? What do you teach? Is it relevant to terminal ballistics?

    On what sort of professional background/experience do you claim the authority to casually discount Gary K. Roberts' professional opinions on matters of terminal ballistics?

    If you're a recognized expert in this field (which I would assume you're claiming due to the dismissive tone you've taken vis-a-vis Gary Roberts, who is one of the world's foremost experts on this subject) you should send your CV to the admins so that they can get you a proper "Industry Professional" or "Subject Matter Expert" tag.

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    Quote Originally Posted by HowardCohodas View Post
    Wow! Two PhDs publishing peer reviewed papers in respected journals and it's all tripe. Go figure.
    I figure the papers aren't being very well received which is why the authors feel compelled to promote them to laymen on internet discussion boards.
    Last edited by Shawn Dodson; 07-16-09 at 09:03.
    Shawn Dodson

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    Quote Originally Posted by HowardCohodas View Post
    I guess I am to believe that the United States Military Academy at West Point is not too careful about the credentials of those they choose to lecture there.
    I worked on the Staff at West Point for two years from 98-00. Much like any other large organization you have some people that are realy good, some that are ok and some that are just a little cut off from the real world.

    I don't have the deapth of knowledge to address this issue, but to illistarte the point about being cut off consider the following. ....

    Many of the permanent staff, mostly LTC's and COL's have been at USMA for 20+ years at the time. The message that they sent to the cadets about conduct of NCO's (for example) was just a LITTLE off. The first time I swore, I was pulled aside by my peers and told to tone it down. Seems the P's(professers) had the cadets believing that NCO's AND OFFICERs don't swear or even yell at others. Seems I had been doing things all wrong for the last 14 years.

    just because you can research, does not always mean you will come to the right conclusion(as I have proven all to often)
    Last edited by DMR; 07-16-09 at 15:08.
    pro-patria.us

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