Ammo 38 Special 4" Barrel

[tpd223]

A quibble, but every agent in the Miami shoot-out with a revolver used this load, from information I have seen presented.

Edmundo Mireles did indeed end that fight with shots from his K frame to the bad guy's heads and necks.

I was honored to attend a class by SA Mireles, excellent training, humble guy.

[Glock17JHP]

I often write my replies here from memory if the details are not real important...
That was why I carefully worded my response the way I did when the comment in question said:
"This load was used by at least one agent in the Miami Shootout of 1986."
No problem whatsoever with your response... you added the details I left out...
I envy that you met SA Ed Mireles...

[Wayne Dobbs]

I also was privileged to meet and listen to SA Mireles while attending an Officer Survival Instructor Course at Metro Dade back in 1996. He was clearly the real deal, but seemed uncomfortable with the attention he had received. He had clearly refused to quit fighting on a terrible day and had carried the fight to the killer(s). I found him to be very down to earth and almost gentle in his personality.

As for the LSWCHP load, I favor the Remingon version over all the others based on chronographing results and the tweaks that RP has done to their version: a semi-hollow base to obtain better bullet obturation (resulting in higher velocity with better accuracy and less leading), a larger hollow point and cavity and a softer alloy (nearly pure lead). From more than one of my J-frames, velocities have run 840-850 fps and expansion to about .55-.58" is the norm (with about half expanding after the four layers of denim test into water).

The WW load was the first of this genre of load, but their version has shown lots of variability due to differing levels of antimony in the bullets from one lot to the next. I've never seen a WW load expand from a 2", although they usually do from a 4" or longer barrel. All of these loads are sorry performers against hard barriers (steel or glass), but against an unprotected antagonist they made the .38 revolver an effective weapon. The actual performance we noted in the Dallas area in dozens of shootings was full torso penetration (12-15") with bullets stopped under the skin on the off side (or in the clothing) and expansion to about .60-.65 caliber. MANY bad guys were dispatched with that load here (and in St. Louis, Chicago, Miami, etc.) from both 2" and 4" guns.

While the 135 GDHP seems to be poised to take its place, I think that the Remingon version still has lots of life left in it, especially when you note the erratic results that Doc Roberts recently noted with the GDHP in follow up testing.

[Glock17JHP]

Had never heard anything bad about the WW 'FBI load' performance... this is a new one on me... I did know, though, that the Remington 'equivilent' had a softer bullet.

[tpd223]

Glock17, no worries, your post was accurate, I just took it from there with the info I had.

Ditto what Wayne said, both on SA Mireles, and the Remigton LSWCHP loading.

[DocGKR]

The Remington 158 gr +P LSWCHP was the best we tested.

[DMR]

Doc,

After your e-mail I'm surprised to see you here "working". God speed.

[DocGKR]

I am having a few minutes of clarity between sleep...