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Thread: Nitride Treated Barrels?

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    Nitride Treated Barrels?

    Ok I have seen Nitrided Bolts and Bolt carriers before but never barrels. In this application does any know how well it is actually holding up? Interesting alternative to Chrome lining.

    IPSC_GUY
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    IIRC LWRC is doing them!

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    Quote Originally Posted by IPSC_GUY View Post
    Ok I have seen Nitrided Bolts and Bolt carriers before but never barrels. In this application does any know how well it is actually holding up? Interesting alternative to Chrome lining.

    IPSC_GUY
    SIERRA II ALPHA
    It outlasts hard chrome. The neat thing (well, there are several) is that the process is a surface conversion "coating" meaning that there is no geometry changes. And, no, it's not a coating, technically. It's ferritic nitrocarburiation by name. LWRC uses the process, as stated as well as Glock, HK and at least one Euro bolt gun manufacturer. I suspect that MANY Euro gun manufacturers utilize ferritic nitrocarburiation processes. If you're interested contact Rock Creek Barrels.

    Mechanical Properties are better than hard chrome for both salt bath and wear resistance, too.

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    i'm starting to think i made the correct move by getting one of $275 DSA ZM-4 uppers. i actually bought it for a cheap "truck gun", in case of theft, as i had all other parts required for a complete rifle just sitting on shelfs. this might work out, even a blind sow finds an acorn, everyonce in a while

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    Quote Originally Posted by VLODPG View Post
    IIRC LWRC is doing them!
    A good hint that it's a snake oil scam.

    I haven't seen them lying about this yet on the Mil Channel yet? Is there a lag before their lies air on Futard Weapons?

    I can't imagine why LWRC would need to do this since according to the goofball rep on Futard Weapons their barrels already last TWICE as everyone else's barrels.
    Last edited by markm; 09-20-09 at 19:41.

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    Quote Originally Posted by markm View Post
    A good hint that it's a snake oil scam.

    I haven't seen them lying about this yet on the Mil Channel yet? Is there a lag before their lies air on Futard Weapons?

    I can't imagine why LWRC would need to do this since according to the goofball rep on Futard Weapons their barrels already last TWICE as everyone else's barrels.
    Markim,

    In your opinion there is no benefit over chrome lining? I can't answer this from personal experience but from things I have read on the Internet, it appeared promising.

    Again, it's just what I read & now hope the 6.8 barrel that I just purchased with this treatment lives up to the hype!

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    Nitride is a not a coating, but a metal treatment which increases surface hardness, corrosion resistance, with no degraded accuracy like chrome lining.

    You take even a stainless barrel, nitride it, and you end up with a barrel with will last 20k rounds without breaking a sweat and hold it's accuracy
    Last edited by variablebinary; 09-20-09 at 20:08.
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    The Sig 550 is supposed to have a nitride treated barrel it has been done in Europe for years.

    I don't care for LWRC but nitride treated barrels and hammer forged barrels all are supposed to extend usable barrel life. I have not seen any documentation that the nitride treatment will out last chrome lining.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Thomas M-4 View Post
    The Sig 550 is supposed to have a nitride treated barrel it has been done in Europe for years.

    I don't care for LWRC but nitride treated barrels and hammer forged barrels all are supposed to extend usable barrel life. I have not seen any documentation that the nitride treatment will out last chrome lining.
    Chrome lining wears in, what, 5000 rounds is the consensus. Nitride increases surface hardness quite a bit, which means it wont wear as fast as chrome

    I'd be willing to wager a 4140 RRA/Wilson barrel can hold its own in terms of barrel life and accuracy against a chrome lined CHF barrel
    Last edited by variablebinary; 09-20-09 at 20:53.
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    Exclamation

    Quote Originally Posted by Thomas M-4 View Post
    The Sig 550 is supposed to have a nitride treated barrel it has been done in Europe for years.

    I don't care for LWRC but nitride treated barrels and hammer forged barrels all are supposed to extend usable barrel life. I have not seen any documentation that the nitride treatment will out last chrome lining.
    With salt bath nitrocarburization there is "no need" for the cold hammer forging - or stainless steel barrels.

    Why?

    No need for the several million dollar tooling though one can make a barrel per minute with CHF process at or near final dimensions. Besides, cut rifling produces a more accurate rifle and grooving with the least amount of stresses.

    One can treat stainless steel but it actually loses corrosion resistance from this process and it won't be as hard as the chromoly steel (nor as tough for 416) and it's slightly more difficult to machine - surface speed is less so it's cut at a slower rate.

    With the tougher, less expensive steel with less internal stresses (and cheaper tooling) I can then use ferritic nitrocarburization to make the surface nearly impervious to corrosion and the chamber, land and grooves should be tougher than hard chrome without the issues of geometric anomalies and flaking.

    Look at H&K, Sig Sauer, Glock, Walther and FNHUSA - all carbon steel; and S&W for martensitic stainless steel. In Europe, several use the process (I believe) - and they also use different (read "better") alloys like 9310.

    I was told by Accuracy International at SHOT 2006 that they nitrocarburize their barrels. I'm told they hold their accuracy for "well over 15,000 rounds." I don't own one so I cannot give you firsthand results.

    I have experimental results comparing ferritic nitrocarburization, Tungsten DLC and hard chrome somewhere in storage. I'll try to ferret it out.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mjolnir View Post
    It outlasts hard chrome. The neat thing (well, there are several) is that the process is a surface conversion "coating" meaning that there is no geometry changes. And, no, it's not a coating, technically. It's ferritic nitrocarburiation by name. LWRC uses the process, as stated as well as Glock, HK and at least one Euro bolt gun manufacturer. I suspect that MANY Euro gun manufacturers utilize ferritic nitrocarburiation processes. If you're interested contact Rock Creek Barrels.

    Mechanical Properties are better than hard chrome for both salt bath and wear resistance, too.
    How long has it been around?
    "Intelligence is not the ability to regurgitate information. It is the ability to make sound decisions on a consistent basis "--me

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    Quote Originally Posted by variablebinary View Post
    Chrome lining wears in, what, 5000 rounds is the consensus. Nitride increases surface hardness quite a bit, which means it wont wear as fast as chrome

    I'd be willing to wager a 4140 RRA/Wilson barrel can hold its own in terms of barrel life and accuracy against a chrome lined CHF barrel
    Your round count is a little low. For chrome lining I have heard everything from 20000 to 60000. so even the low side of that is higher than 5K
    "Intelligence is not the ability to regurgitate information. It is the ability to make sound decisions on a consistent basis "--me

    "Just remember, when you are talking to the average person, you are talking to a television set"--RDJB

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    If it out lasts chrome lining I am for it maybe because it is new in the states I cant find much info as to barrel life. Is this treatment similar to melonite treatment? I can remember Grant posting that it did not have the best results in a .223 bore?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Abraxas View Post
    "How long has it been around?"
    It's been experimented with since "just after" WW II, I'm told.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Thomas M-4 View Post
    "If it out lasts chrome lining I am for it maybe because it is new in the states I cant find much info as to barrel life. Is this treatment similar to melonite treatment? I can remember Grant posting that it did not have the best results in a .223 bore?"
    People use improper vernacular. There is Titanium Aluminum NITRIDE, Titanium NITRIDE and other nitrides that are physical vapor deposition COATINGS. Then there is Ferritic or Salt Bath Nitrocarburization. There is the caustic salt bath and Ammonia "vapor" (not really) type. The Salt Bath appears to be better of the two - at least for automotive valves.

    So one must ferret out what exactly do they mean when someone states that "thus and so is 'nitrided'".
    Last edited by Mjolnir; 09-20-09 at 21:10.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Abraxas View Post
    Your round count is a little low. For chrome lining I have heard everything from 20000 to 60000. so even the low side of that is higher than 5K
    Hard Chrome wears out in the THROAT of the barrel well under 20,000 rounds. This is what will cause the inaccuracy in a well-kept barrel: the surface roughness imparts those patterns on the copper-nickel jacket. The melonited/tuftrided/salt bath nitrocarburized surface is better for wear than hard chrome. How much so [at elevated temps] I cannot exactly say. For a carbine barrel I believe it's effects would be awesome (maybe) for gas [port] erosion since it's better than hard chrome... For a bolt gun I think it would be "essential" since it's not used like a carbine and anything that (A) improves wear resistance and (B) improves corrosion resistance would be an awesome thing, no?

    Talk with Mike Rock at Rock Creek Barrels.
    Last edited by Mjolnir; 09-20-09 at 23:27. Reason: "gas [port] erosion" correction

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    Quote Originally Posted by markm View Post
    A good hint that it's a snake oil scam.
    Being in the manufacturing engineering business for nearly 15 years, I can say unequivocally that you are wrong about ferritic nitrocarburization.

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    An old thread ref melonite treated barrels:

    http://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=33286
    Last edited by Hound_va; 09-20-09 at 21:32.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Alpha Sierra View Post
    Being in the manufacturing engineering business for nearly 15 years, I can say unequivocally that you are wrong about ferritic nitrocarburization.
    He's wrong about a lot of things. Especially when it comes to LWRCi.

    -Vic

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