question about ccw

[DacoRoman]

Look at the basics physics behind your question. You are wondering if you would get better performance and penetration by increasing the frontal area and slowing the velocity of your projectile of choice? No, physics doesn't work that way. The faster the bullet, the small the frontal area, the better the penetration. .45 is not going to get you anything more in winter that your 9mm can't already do.

I think the OP was simply worried about failure of expansion of any HP ammo when the bullet has to penetrate through heavy clothing, therefore the argument some make is that one might as well carry a .45 caliber weapon to ensure a bigger wound channel, precisely because it is expected that HP expansion will fail (in the heavy cloth scenario).

But like tpd wrote, there is the 4 layer denim FBI testing standard, and if the bullet does well here, then it ought to be able to expand despite potentially having to negotiate a fluffy winter coat and a turtle neck, but who knows. Maybe Doc can chime in.

[millerlite]

Do your friends actually carry .45 autos or do they just talk about it? Many of the most strident .45 proponents end up carrying Keltec .32 or .380's because they are more convenient. If a larger caliber gives you the warm and fuzzys by all means use it but I'll stick with my M&P9 or Glock 19.

yea they do. one a kimber and one a usp

[millerlite]

I think the OP was simply worried about failure of expansion of any HP ammo when the bullet has to penetrate through heavy clothing, therefore the argument some make is that one might as well carry a .45 caliber weapon to ensure a bigger wound channel, precisely because it is expected that HP expansion will fail (in the heavy cloth scenario).

But like tpd wrote, there is the 4 layer denim FBI testing standard, and if the bullet does well here, then it ought to be able to expand despite potentially having to negotiate a fluffy winter coat and a turtle neck, but who knows. Maybe Doc can chime in.

thats pretty much what i was asking. I asked it because i have heard and read on the internet that 9mm has a tendency to clog when penetrating heavy clothing. With saying that, I dont necessarily believe all the crap i read online. That is why I posted my question on here. I figured that there are enough knowledgeable people on here to either inform me or point me in the right direction to find the information.

[LockenLoad]

http://www.firearmstactical.com/ammo_data/9mm.htm

Notice the clothed gelatin, you have more penetration
( in some instances) just some hard numbers to look at for you, looks like the 9mm is doing great

http://www.firearmstactical.com/wound.htm

if you want more info

[DacoRoman]

thats pretty much what i was asking. I asked it because i have heard and read on the internet that 9mm has a tendency to clog when penetrating heavy clothing. With saying that, I dont necessarily believe all the crap i read online. That is why I posted my question on here. I figured that there are enough knowledgeable people on here to either inform me or point me in the right direction to find the information.

Well I think that all HP's have a tendency to clog when penetrating clothing, and this is more a function of specific bullet design much more than caliber. An obsolescent .45 HP design will most probably expand much less efficiently, clothing or not actually, than a modern 9mm designed to pass the FBI testing protocols, including the minimum expansion standards after traveling through denim/cloth.

So I'd say that if you are comfy with the 9mm, pick an ammo offering from the recommended list and keep on truckin'.

Maybe a good bullet design would be to use moder HP technology (Gold Dot, Ranger T, HST, Barnes/DPX, etc.) but in a semi wadcutter HP design. That way even if the round doesn't expand (for example if heavy clothing is encountered) the cutting action of the semi wadcutter design might still ensure superior terminal ballistics compared to the round nose type designs that tend to push tissues aside. Just a thought.

[Alpha Sierra]

Hornady's Critical Defense bullets, with the polymer plug in the cavity, looks like a simple and elegant way to defeat the hollow point clogging issue.

[skyugo]

i carry a G19 in the winter... i can draw it a little faster and it holds more rounds....
9mm penetrates well.

[tpd223]

All of the winter time OISs that I have seen here resulted in recovered bullets that looked remarkably like the ones I have seen shot in the 4 layer denim and heavy clothing tests.

FWIW, the 124gr +P Gold Dot and Ranger-T, and the 147gr HST all work very well through heavy clothing.

A typical event for the Gold Dot load would be full expansion of the bullet, cross torso penetration of the bad guy, bullet pops out the far side and is caught in the clothing or drops to the ground.

In some older designs (the Hydrashock 9mms loads were poor police duty ammo in our experience) the bullet can clog, and often did. Now a days I don't worry about it.

[DacoRoman]

All of the winter time OISs that I have seen here resulted in recovered bullets that looked remarkably like the ones I have seen shot in the 4 layer denim and heavy clothing tests.

FWIW, the 124gr +P Gold Dot and Ranger-T, and the 147gr HST all work very well through heavy clothing.

A typical event for the Gold Dot load would be full expansion of the bullet, cross torso penetration of the bad guy, bullet pops out the far side and is caught in the clothing or drops to the ground.

In some older designs (the Hydrashock 9mms loads were poor police duty ammo in our experience) the bullet can clog, and often did. Now a days I don't worry about it.

interesting..thanks for the info

[cschwanz]

i only carry a .45 for ccw, mainly b.c the only two handguns i own are both 45, lol. Its my personal preference for a defense round, but if you are comfortable with the 9mm and are proficient with it.....well then carry on. I like the bigger round, but any gun is better than no gun...