LE running point shooting drills

[7.62NATO]

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[geminidglocker]

I once trained with a 1911 for about a week, practicing point shooting. I don't know how it would work in a combat scenario, but to put it simply, it does work with a little practice. I have'nt practiced it since then. I'll go outside this afternoon and try it with my Glock 26. I doubt it will point as naturaly as my heavy 1911 did, but it will be fun to try anyhow.

[John_Wayne777]

Was browsing another forum and ran into this video clip:

http://sydsvenskan.se/webbtv/webbtv_...er-skarpt.html

It depicts Swedish LE practicing point shooting at close range to medium range.

I can't see a video clip there, but I'll take your word for it.

As far as point shooting in general goes:

It's pretty hard to argue entirely against point shooting. When SME's like Larry Vickers and Ken Hackathorn tell you that there is a time and place for point shooting (like at close range) it's pretty hard to argue that it has no place whatsoever in the bag-o-tricks.

I was just in a handgun class with Ken Hackathorn over the weekend and point shooting was a part of his presentation. It can be used very effectively especially at close range...which, incidentally, is where most gunfights tend to happen.

Now there's a lot of stuff out there labeled as "point shooting" and without seeing the video I can't tell if what is presented in it is good stuff or goofy as hell. So with that limitation I'll simply say that a hard front sight focus is not required in all social interactions that involve firearms.

Is there a place for point shooting in LE, and if so, when is it warranted?

We discussed this at dinner with Ken. I'll shamelessly borrow his example.

Go outside and watch people walking down the street. Take your thumb and put it between the person and your eye and focus on it just as you would focus on the front sight when making a shot. Can you see their hands?

Probably not.

Now consider a police officer who is facing an uncooperative suspect that may have a weapon. Where do you want them to have their focus, on the sight or on his hands?

My understanding was that point shooting is a last resort technique to be used in CQB. Please shine some light on this if you will.

Point shooting is difficult to discuss because it means so many things to so many different people. There's such a thing as a hard front sight focus, and then there's such a thing as seeing what you need to see which many label as point shooting, and then there's the from-the-hip point shooting, etc.

Exactly what is being referenced is important.

Then you have to factor in human nature. In the stress of a life or death moment it's natural for people to focus on the threat rather than their sights...so you have situations where people have been in shootings where they made accurate hits without ever seeing their sights, or that made accurate hits without paying much attention to their sights. Accuracy with a firearm in a serious social interaction is not a static thing. The circumstances dictate the level of speed and accuracy necessary to resolve the problem...and this also complicates the discussion.

[7.62NATO]

Let them come to me!!!!

[ST911]

That's a speed rock at contact distance. Useful tool to have in the tool box when you're at bad breath distance or in active physical contact.

Otherwise, I like other techniques with greater distance. Whenever you can get two hands on the gun, I'd do it. You're also more likely to get good hits when the gun indexes off your body center line and in better sync with your muscle memory, than when at your side like they're doing at distance.

Terminology gets in the way a bit here, too. One man's "point shooting" is anothers "should point/body point indexing", etc. One might also call looking across the sights without alignment as "point shooting", vs. unsighted fire.

The greatest thing in that video are the lady shooters and instructors. Great to see them learning, and more of them teaching.

[John_Wayne777]

Thanks for your reply. Here is the correct link:

http://sydsvenskan.se/webbtv/webbtv_...er-skarpt.html


The LE in the video are certainly taking shots from the hip.
Unfortunately the commentator is commentating is Swedish.

Ok...seeing the vid now.

The very first shots you see are at less than arm's length. It's entirely appropriate to shoot from a retention position in that situation. The next series shows them shooting at 2-3 yards from a sort of body indexed position reminiscent of the old Applegate method, although it appears to be some different position than the Colonel taught.

On a static target that may work...but personally I would argue that using a normal shooting index (bringing the weapon to eye level) would be a better practice. Looking at the subsequent shots it shows that some of them involve bringing the weapon up into eye line and some of them are more hip shooting.

I'm not a fan of hip shooting except in a retention situation...and even then it can be argued that there are better approaches to some situations.

One other thing to notice in that video....did you see how big the targets were? How far apart the hits were? How bad the trigger manipulation was? That was on a static range on static targets bigger than some of the officers and with little stress. Now imagine what it will look like when you put them under gunfight conditions...

[K.L. Davis]

We discussed this at dinner with Ken. I'll shamelessly borrow his example.

Go outside and watch people walking down the street. Take your thumb and put it between the person and your eye and focus on it just as you would focus on the front sight when making a shot. Can you see their hands?

Probably not.

Now consider a police officer who is facing an uncooperative suspect that may have a weapon. Where do you want them to have their focus, on the sight or on his hands?

I teach the same thing at times... tell the student to draw and cover me, then ask them "where are my hands?" -- another good lesson is a weapon retention thing, demonstrated by disarming the student, when they are presenting a pistol that is actually closer to me, than it is to them

ETA: I just watched the video...

Ok...seeing the vid now.

The very first shots you see are at less than arm's length. It's entirely appropriate to shoot from a retention position in that situation.

That about sums it up...

[Surf]

As mentioned, they are teaching a classic "speed rock" and a couple other retention / closed distance techniques for up close or contact distance attack. You see this taught widespread throughout LE. They are then incorporating SIMS drills with an actual assailant closing the distance.

I also like to use a point shoot and it is very effective in certain instances. It is also good to let your students try certain techniques on a square range at various distances, or take them out of their comfort zone, if for nothing more than for them to understand, or to re-inforce their own abilities and / or limitations of certain techniques.

[chadbag]

I'll ask my friend Max about it. He is a cop in Stockholm. See if there is more to the story on what their doctrine is.

[NCPatrolAR]

I'm far from a fan of the speedrock. The techique puts you off balance and would typically cause the user to fall ass over tea kettle due to his balance being over his heels. I find it much more preferable to move towards the threat and remain in a better state of balance