Optics for Self Defense and CQB: My thoughts and experiences

[Alaskapopo]

thank you for this very informative post. it answered some questions i had about cqb red dots. i am of the proponent that in a break-in or home invasion type scenario iron sights will be the best option. and also thanks for the xs, tritium sights info. these old eyes need all the help they can get..thanks again.

Irons are not the best option for this situation red dots are. Irons suck in low light which is usually when people break into your home.
Pat

[loganp0916]

Tag for future reference.
Great detailed info.
Thank you

[decodeddiesel]

thank you for this very informative post. it answered some questions i had about cqb red dots. i am of the proponent that in a break-in or home invasion type scenario iron sights will be the best option. and also thanks for the xs, tritium sights info. these old eyes need all the help they can get..thanks again.

Have you ever had to actually fight with a gun in low-light? Many of the people on this site have, and the knowledge they pass is invaluable if you have no practical experience in the area.

That said, you seriously need to re-evaluate your opinion. Here's a big clue, Aimpoints and EOTechs are not sitting atop the rifles of professionals because they look cool.

ETA: Also notice the post was written over 4 years ago. Things have changed.

[Alaskapopo]

I had a black bear charge me from less than 20 feet away at night in a dark alley last year. All I had on my shotgun was Ghost Ring sights and and thankfully a weapon mounted light. I did not see the sights. I was target focused. I really wish I had a red dot at that time. My first few shots sucked and after looking at the bear when it was deal it appeared they hit its legs or skimmed the lower portion of his chest. My 4rd and 5th hit home then it turned and then a Trooper who was behind me nailed it in the back with a 45 70 killing it. That was an illistration of irons sucking in low light.
Pat

[bp7178]

I did not see the sights. I was target focused.

If that is the case, I don't see how this is an illustration of irons sucking in low light. The same thing would happen in daylight if you focus on the target.

Just because you have an aimpoint you still have to slow down enough to align it and pull the trigger w/o disturbing that alignment. You can watch people on a shooting line not aim. They point the weapon, may even do some rudementary sight alignment, but their targets tell the story. You can see this with either irons or RDS, just even under the light stress of having to qualify, beat a timer, or just wanting to shoot well.

The advantage of using red dots is not having to change your focus from the target back to the sights. Doing fights against how our bodies/eyes would react in that situation.

But don't think training won't overcome it. The problem is it take a lot of training to do so.

ETA: Also notice the post was written over 4 years ago. Things have changed.

Not much has changed really. Aimpoints have been around since the 1990s. Variable scopes are gaining in popularity, the models mentioned in the article are still in production or have newer versions.

I'm not a huge fan of RDS for home defense because w/o my glasses and/or contacts, the aiming point is a big blob. Even worse with an Eotech. A variable scope can be dialed into a dipoter correction, but not really ideal to depend on this for HD. IMO, I like irons and a white light.

When I picture a HD concept carbine, I imagine a lightweight, short weapon with irons and a white light with more ballistic capability than a pistol.

For situations where I would already be wearing glasses or contacts, ie patrol carbine usage, RDS and low power variable scopes are more ideal.

Either way, you have to train. If you are serious about HD use, train in low light as much as possible and try these options out for yourself.

[decodeddiesel]

I'm not a huge fan of RDS for home defense because w/o my glasses and/or contacts, the aiming point is a big blob. Even worse with an Eotech. A variable scope can be dialed into a dipoter correction, but not really ideal to depend on this for HD. IMO, I like irons and a white light.

OK, so you figured out what works best for you. Dandy. The thing that really worries me about your post is that you seem to be saying that you would engage a human being with lethal force, at night, in your home, without even putting your glasses on!?

[ALCOAR]

I'd agree...if you cannot make out a rds's dot, how exactly are you gonna make out whether your mentally challenged or drunk neighbor stumbled into your home vs. a well armed threat.

[bp7178]

OK, so you figured out what works best for you. Dandy. The thing that really worries me about your post is that you seem to be saying that you would engage a human being with lethal force, at night, in your home, without even putting your glasses on!?

If someone is making a violent tumlutous entry into your home, while you are sleeping, you'll be hard pressed to have enough time to grab your rifle and have the right mindset being awakened like that. Hard guys like you might sleep in plate carriers though...

If a drunken neighbor kicks my door in I would perceive that as a threat. Plenty of people have been killed by drunk people they knew. I don't really get the logic there. Threat assesment is a part of any use of force incident. I wouldn't automatically shoot anyone found in my home. It would be dependant on a number of circumstances, and of course all these things get worked out in a hurry. But, this thread really isn't about that, its about optics for HD use.

My vision isn't that bad w/o my glasses, but it doesn't take much to have a red dot look like a blob, and the Eotechs just become a 65moa mess. Even guys with corrected vision sometimes won't see a perfectly round dot.

Obviously, having time and oppurtunity, I would put my glasses on, and I do sleep in my contacts sometimes. But like I said, my vision isn't that bad anyway, and I'm quite sure I could make out a threat at the distances involved.

Dandy.

[decodeddiesel]

Firstly, this shit is just stupid and completely uncalled for.

Hard guys like you might sleep in plate carriers though...

You know what? There was a time in my life where yes, I had to spend weeks on end sleeping in body armor, and YEARS sleeping with an M4 in condition 3 and body armor next to my "nest" (no, I didn't have a ****ing bed).

I could give a shit what sighting system you choose to use on your carbine.

The fact of the matter is that MOST people would be better served with a sighting system which simply works better in low-light/no-light, ie an Aimpoint.

[bp7178]

If you're saying you don't think you are capable of donning your prescription glasses before you deal with a possible threat in your house, then how in the **** will you be able to actually pick up a weapon, place it in a ready condition, then engage a threat?

Never said that or meant to imply I wouldn't by choice or lack some capability to do so, just that there might not be time and I see it as a worst case secnario situation. Placing the weapon in ready condition would take priority, as I can see well enough to make out a threat at hallway distance. I don't see why you're getting wrapped around the axle on that.

I can assure you plenty people have been shot by those who weren't using RDS and only had irons.

I could give a shit what sighting system you choose to use on your carbine.

Then why did you make your pissy response in the first place?