Optics for Self Defense and CQB: My thoughts and experiences

[HD1911]

arguing about this stuff is nonsense...come on guys.

[decodeddiesel]

arguing about this stuff is nonsense...come on guys.

ETA: Dear Lord! This is your first post outside of the EE and GD in over 18 months? ****ing awesome work.

I am trying to point out for the benefit of the people who read this thread that there are specific advantages in low light gun fighting afforded by the use of a RDS. Even if you can't put on your glasses and the dot is a "big blur".

[bp7178]

Dude...really?

Slow down man, its just an internet forum.

Time to edit my ignore list.

[Alaskapopo]

If that is the case, I don't see how this is an illustration of irons sucking in low light. The same thing would happen in daylight if you focus on the target.

Just because you have an aimpoint you still have to slow down enough to align it and pull the trigger w/o disturbing that alignment. You can watch people on a shooting line not aim. They point the weapon, may even do some rudementary sight alignment, but their targets tell the story. You can see this with either irons or RDS, just even under the light stress of having to qualify, beat a timer, or just wanting to shoot well.

The advantage of using red dots is not having to change your focus from the target back to the sights. Doing fights against how our bodies/eyes would react in that situation.

But don't think training won't overcome it. The problem is it take a lot of training to do so.



Not much has changed really. Aimpoints have been around since the 1990s. Variable scopes are gaining in popularity, the models mentioned in the article are still in production or have newer versions.

I'm not a huge fan of RDS for home defense because w/o my glasses and/or contacts, the aiming point is a big blob. Even worse with an Eotech. A variable scope can be dialed into a dipoter correction, but not really ideal to depend on this for HD. IMO, I like irons and a white light.

When I picture a HD concept carbine, I imagine a lightweight, short weapon with irons and a white light with more ballistic capability than a pistol.

For situations where I would already be wearing glasses or contacts, ie patrol carbine usage, RDS and low power variable scopes are more ideal.

Either way, you have to train. If you are serious about HD use, train in low light as much as possible and try these options out for yourself.

With a red dot sight you can shoot with target focus and you don't have to slow down because you are changing your focus from the sights to the target.
Pat

[JSantoro]

ETA: Dear Lord! This is your first post outside of the EE and GD in over 18 months? ****ing awesome work.

Given that he's right, "...first post outside X and Y subforums in Z time..." doesn't really apply. At no point did forum policy shift to make location and time-frame of posting habits become the litmus test of the validity of an appeal for a discussion to take place in lieu of an agrument.

Folks would do well to stop thinking in terms of "it's the best" absolutes, in this regard. Recall that we're talking about individuals using these things, and that individuals buck trends all the time. Think of a bell-curve; the apex of the hump represents the trend, without eliminating nor invalidating the shit on either side of the hump.

KNOW the capabilities, the pros/cons. MAKE a decision. MAKE a plan as to how to best utilize the pros while mitigating or eliminating the cons. PRACTICE with your chosen gear.

[ra2bach]

I can assure you plenty people have been shot by those who weren't using RDS and only had irons.

and plenty of dudes have been smoked by single shot pistols and bolt action rifles, but that's not what this thread's about.

if anyone has a vision anomaly that makes the RDS less than the best choice for them, fine. noted. glad you got that worked out...

but that's such a huge minority of case that it really shouldn't be given more than a passing mention here. in 99 and 44/100% of the time, a RDS will be a benefit and that's what Jeff was writing about.

please, let's not get this thread closed over something as stupid as this... (I wonder if it would be possible for the mods to simply delete offending posts rather than locking a valuable resource?..)

[JSantoro]

Possible, hell.

Forecast is "partly edited, with a chance of Tree of Woe. Accumulations of 2 or more members possible."

[decodeddiesel]

If my posts need to be deleted so be it. I said what I needed to say, and ra2bach summed it up well.

Please allow me to share my experience. I have been in real engagements at night with iron sights with and without a white light, both indoors and outdoors. It sucked. Indoors you have a bit better chance because at the close ranges you can use point shooting, or instinctual shooting. This is NOT a good way to go when you are trying to stop a badguy in your house, especially if you have other people living in the house or if you are in a crowded residential neighborhood. In Iraq or A-stan, in a crappy mudhut it's not as big of a deal. However outdoors at night with just iron sights, tracers, and a white light you are at a severe disadvantage.

The thing that you learn very quickly is that unless you have that light on constantly (which goes against everything you learn training in low-light) as soon as you go from light on to light off your eyes will be saturated and trying to make out those nice blacked out iron sights is one step from impossible. An Aimpoint allows you to immediately see and know the POA of your weapon. It is a nice bright red glowing dot.

Furthermore it has been demonstrated time and time again that under periods of extreme stress using a single illuminated aiming point that allows you to focus on the target is FAR better than trying to use iron sights to do the same thing.

[bp7178]

but that's such a huge minority of case that it really shouldn't be given more than a passing mention here. in 99 and 44/100% of the time, a RDS will be a benefit and that's what Jeff was writing about.

Don't get me wrong, I see and appreciate the value of RDS. This thread was about such optics on a home defense carbine. In THAT limited role, was what I was talking about. For general purpose, patrol/urban work etc, I would prefer a T-1, or a Short Dot.

The value of having a RDS isn't lost on me, and i'm not arguing against them.

if anyone has a vision anomaly that makes the RDS less than the best choice for them, fine. noted. glad you got that worked out...

I have no idea why there is so much stick on this vision thing. It was meant as a minor point added to what the original author wrote. Here it is again...

By self defense, I'm going to guess that the place you are most likely to use an AR15 is in defense of your home.

For a home defense carbine I would suggest a simple carbine with iron sights and a white light. This is not the "coolest" answer, but it is probably one of the most practical.

Most guys don't deal with violent criminals on a daily basis and often times on the internet posts like this often generate more responses that are based on "theory" rather than responses that closely follow circumstances that a armed civilian is likely to find himself in.

That being said, I see a lot of threads like this, and most of the responses are based on theory and best case scenerios. Any fighter (boxer, soldier, cop, civilian defending themselves) should always train for the worst case scenerio, not the best case. As the saying goes, prepare for the worst, hope for the best.

If as an armed civilian you are unlucky enough to be the intended victim of a violent crime, you are most likely going to be involved in a defensive or reactive fight, not an offensive fight. The criminal, much like an animal of prey will pick the intended victim, the date, the time, and the place for the attack.

As a victim of a violent crime, you will almost always find yourself dealing with the situation on the criminals terms. You will be reacting to his actions. As is proof in the OODA loop, actions are always quicker than reactions.

If a criminal kicks in your front door to committ a home invasion robbery, he isn't going to sit in the front living room like a prom date and wait for you (the victim) to turn on your optic, put on your multi-cam plate carrier, and get ready for the fight. He is there it dominate you and to control you and to get what he wants (steal something of monitary value, take a human life, exact revenge, etc) In most cases you are barely going to have enough time to roll out of bed and grab your gun (much less turn on an optic, mess with a sling, insert a mag and chamber a round, etc) before the bad guy is in the same room as you. Crimes like this happen VERY quickly.

Sorry for the rant, but these are things you may want to consider prior to deciding if an optic is the best route.

glad you got that worked out...

You take pissy swipes then write about deleting offending posts? Come on man.

[Jwalker]

FWIW, somewhere between 30% and 60% of the population exhibit astigmatism, which makes RDS less than ideal. (I googled and found both numbers and spanned them...) I'm among that group, and am trying to decide if a fast blur for close range outweighs the real lack of precision for longer range - it's much more of a problem for those with that eyesight problem than for those without it, and it's not a small part of the population.

I'd sure prefer facts and arguments to assurance that the other folks are wrong, which is seldom the case, anyway. The Aimpoint argument is easiest, as there isn't much to compare with it, with EOTech likely looking to need a depot level maintenance facility. On the other hand, I'm finding the 1-4x scopes nearly impossible to choose among, as the scopes with good qualities are much, much more expensive than the RDS.