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Thread: Interesting thread on GT about bullet performance in actual shootings

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    Interesting thread on GT about bullet performance in actual shootings

    http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/show....php?t=1165386

    OP states he's a 16 year police officer, now doing crime scene investigations. Apparently he's worked a lot of shootings and has been privy to autopsies as well. Sounds like for a busy department or agency. In the thread he states that there is no difference between major calibers, i.e. 9mm, .40, or .45. From the results he has seen, that if the bullet doesn't strike vitals, it doesn't matter what your shooting, even rifle rounds. Bottom line, as most of us already know, is that shot placement is key. States the wounds between the major calibers are indistinguishable.

    I was surprised to read that, he calls pistol hollow points "marketing hype" and prefers FMJ based on what he has seen from various shootings because they feed better and they are going to penetrate more. He states that the wounds from hollow points do no more damage than FMJ. A line from the thread, "I know I'll upset a lot of people, but I think Hollow Point ammunition is a very good idea that just doesn't match up with reality."

    I found it to be interesting stuff. Check it out.
    Last edited by ack495; 01-03-10 at 01:59.

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    If the comments by “Lookin4U” are read closely, I’d say that his posts are quite reasonable and for the most part are in concordance with what we see and what has been reported here and in the wound ballistics literature.

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    Quote Originally Posted by DocGKR View Post
    If the comments by “Lookin4U” are read closely, I’d say that his posts are quite reasonable and for the most part are in concordance with what we see and what has been reported here and in the wound ballistics literature.
    including the worthlessness of HPs?

    if nothing else, HPs still offer a better chance of striking vitals- when expanded, they're bigger, and therefor hit more shit- even if it's just a small-percentile thing, it's still "better."

    no?

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    Again, you have to CLOSELY read what he has written:

    "Usually the miscreants we deal with have a vast assortment of different rounds in their magazines - sort of "whatever you can find" kind of arrangement. It is not uncommon to find at least three separate head stamps in a given pile of spent casings when there was only one shooter."
    Given that context, then yes, most of the JHP's he is coming into contact with are likely older designs/poor performers so FMJ's would probably work just as well.

    On the other hand, when talking about punching through intermediate barriers and preventing shots from deflecting, then a modern robust expanding JHP offers some benefits over FMJ. In addition, over the past decade in this area, the majority of the handgun JHP hits landed by good guys in OIS incidents have remained in the suspects, contrary to the experiences related by “Lookin4U” in his commentary. Based on our experiences, we choose to use well designed JHP's.

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    doubletap
    Last edited by WS6; 01-03-10 at 10:45.

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    Quote Originally Posted by DocGKR View Post
    Again, you have to CLOSELY read what he has written:



    Given that context, then yes, most of the JHP's he is coming into contact with are likely older designs/poor performers so FMJ's would probably work just as well.

    On the other hand, when talking about punching through intermediate barriers and preventing shots from deflecting, then a modern robust expanding JHP offers some benefits over FMJ. In addition, over the past decade in this area, the majority of the handgun JHP hits landed by good guys in OIS incidents have remained in the suspects, contrary to the experiences related by “Lookin4U” in his commentary. Based on our experiences, we choose to use well designed JHP's.

    "I've become a fan of penetration, as the post I was typing when you posted will show. Since I have begun attending autopsies, I really think there is a lot more marketing hype to FMJ vs. JHP.Our department currently issues, at officer's preference, Glock G17's with 124gr Speer Gold Dots or Glock G22's with 165gr Speer Gold Dots. In 2009 I observed three autopsies of officer involved shootings, all three with the .40S&W 165gr Gold Dots... I can't honestly say that the damage looked any different than any other major caliber shooting I have seen.

    From what I have observed, the damage done by all "major caliber" handguns (i.e. 9X19mm and up) looks very close to identical inside of the human body (Sorry guys, and I see a lot of .45ACP shootings). " --Lookin4U
    What is your opinion of this observation?

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    It would seem that in the three autopsies that the poster described, the wound tracks from the .40 165 gr Gold Dot JHP's did not appear any different than those caused by other handgun projectiles--sounds quite reasonable in inline with what the forensic literature repeatedly reports.

    Don't over-think this subject; projectiles, particularly handgun bullets, simply poke holes in things, just like arrows, spears, daggers, or shivs. The only difference is that bullets allow you to poke the holes from further away...

    As always, the most important things are:

    -- Cultivate a warrior mindset
    -- Invest in competent, thorough initial training and then maintain skills with regular ongoing practice
    -- Acquire a reliable and durable weapon system
    -- Purchase a consistent, robust performing duty/self-defense load in sufficient quantities (at least 1000 rounds) then STOP worrying about the nuances of handgun ammunition terminal performance.

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    Quote Originally Posted by bkb0000 View Post
    including the worthlessness of HPs?

    if nothing else, HPs still offer a better chance of striking vitals- when expanded, they're bigger, and therefor hit more shit- even if it's just a small-percentile thing, it's still "better."

    no?
    Exactly. Pretty much every service caliber will pass right through the body in FMJ form damaging only a small path of tissue in its wake. It's kind of like target arrow being shot into an animal. Only a small hole is made as most of the tissue is stretched around the arrow pushing its way through. A flat frontal area such as a semi-wadcutter, wadcutter, or JHP catches on the surrounding tissue and causes more tearing and cutting in the bullet path and thus more damage and a larger hole. Combine that with an expanding JHP and you have even more tear, crushing, and cutting and an overall larger wound volume. A bullet that exits the body has wasted a lot of work energy, while a bullet that has optimal penetration depths and expanded to its fullest has destroyed the greatest amount of the badguy's body that the caliber is capable of doing. You're looking at almost double the wound volume. This is a concept that has been realized in wartime and hunting for well over a hundred years. Using a reliable JHP is a measurable and likely, a significant improvement over using a FMJ loading.

    16yrs seems like a long time to be on the job........but it really isn't and is a relatively small sample of data. Dr. Fackler's work incorporates probably a couple of centuries worth of gun shot wound experience when you account for all the players involved.......and all that experience goes well beyond the simple crime scene investigator(I've done CSI work and it really isn't that thorough when it comes to GSW) level. Doc makes a great point regarding non officer shootings. The ammunition is usually of poor quality and reliability and because that it is hard to distinguish any advantage in using a poorly made FMJ and a poorly made JHP. OIS with quality JHPs are a different story though. The guy does get the big picture though. A well placed 9mm FMJ is better than a poorly placed .45acp JHP. However, a well placed .45acp JHP is better than a well placed 9mm FMJ.
    Last edited by Marcus L.; 01-03-10 at 09:29.
    America is NOT a Democracy......nor should we ever want it to be:

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    Too many variables in crime related shootings. Ballistic data acquiered in such investigations are deemed invalid, due to the fact that the majority of those involved are involved in their first, and last, only shooting incident. A skilled and properly trained shooter that has reacted to actual combat, is much more efficient with all said calibers.

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    Quote Originally Posted by geminidglocker View Post
    Too many variables in crime related shootings. Ballistic data acquiered in such investigations are deemed invalid, due to the fact that the majority of those involved are involved in their first, and last, only shooting incident.
    there's too many variables in all shootings to say that a person can shoot well enough to compensate for them. you can land multiple COM hit and still not stike anything vital. figuring in the fact that training needs to preceed experience, and that even well-trained combat veterans still aren't likely to land perfect COM hits on a majority of targets, due to all the variables and human flaw, this is even more so. more well-as-can-be-placed holes is better than bigger-but-fewer-well-as-can-be-placed holes, when we're talking about the likelihood of striking vitals.

    Quote Originally Posted by geminidglocker View Post
    A skilled and properly trained shooter that has reacted to actual combat, is much more efficient with all said calibers.
    what's your point? and how do you support this statement?

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