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Thread: Interesting thread on GT about bullet performance in actual shootings

  1. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by DocGKR View Post
    There are numerous reports in the medical and forensic literature that show a higher mortality rate with stabbing victims vs. those shot with handgun projectiles.
    This is certainly true when you select data for intentional GSW's and edged weapon wounds (EWW's), and discard all the unintentional/negligent wounds.

    The long-quoted statistic from the American College of Surgeons Advanced Trauma Life Support course is that handguns GSW's have an overall mortality of under 20%. When suicides are subtracted from that number--as they should be, as typically the handgun is in contact with the cranium or in the mouth with subsequent massive brain damage, and as such are almost always lethal--the mortality rate of handgun GSW's drops to under 10%.

    A major metropolitan police force recently concluded a multi-year study of officer mortality when assaulted by felons and concluded that the likelihood of officer mortality from handgun GSWs is about 5%. This, of course, is in a group of persons who wear ballistic vests and have the means and training to shoot back at the felons who have assaulted them. In an unarmored person, mortality would necessarily be higher, but by all estimates still under 10%

    From an emergency medicine & surgical perspective, treatment of handgun GSWs is relatively straightforward. EWW's present a much more complex diagnostic and therapeutic challenge. EWWs that penetrate the thoracic or abdominal cavities have a much higher rate of mortality than handgun GSWs in no small part because of the complexity of the problem presenting to the physician/surgeon.

  2. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by bkb0000 View Post
    this is exactly why i finally made the switch to 9mm after a decade of 45-or-nothing mentality.
    Me too...

  3. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by DocGKR View Post
    Perhaps I missed it, but I didn't see him making a statement that agencies should issue FMJ's...
    i dont believe he ever explicitly stated FMJs should be used by agencies- but that was the implication of his conclusions, and he did state that he uses and recommends FMJs be used, because they feed better. he didn't state who the recommendation goes to. i'll skim through and find the quote, and ETA it here.

    ETA:

    Post No. 33

    It is my opinion - take it for what it is worth - nothing - that FMJ's are superior to JHP's. They tend to feed more reliably and penetrate more reliably and I have yet to witness anything that would suggest that hollow-point expansion gives any tangible benefit at all in actual shootings...

    Like I originally stated, this is just my opinion but it is based on actual shootings. For anyone who would care to disagree I will be more than happy to review the forensic pathology report you offer as evidence...
    i didn't actually see anywhere where he "recommended" FMJs be used.. i didn't look that hard, as it's a long thread, but i'm willing to admit i might have simply concluded that part in my own mind, based on the comment he did make, quoted above. i've also thought i clearly remembered telling my wife things she has absolutely no recollection of.. maybe i'm partially insane.

    nonetheless, we can infer, based on his statement, that he would recommend people carry FMJs.
    Last edited by bkb0000; 01-08-10 at 16:32.

  4. #54
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    I wish someone would invite him over here for a visit... I cannot, since I got myself banned on Glocktalk when I got frustrated with some of the mentality there...

  5. #55
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    Quote Originally Posted by Glock17JHP View Post
    I wish someone would invite him over here for a visit... I cannot, since I got myself banned on Glocktalk when I got frustrated with some of the mentality there...
    it's not too hard to get banned over there- i was banned even before i signed up. literally.

  6. #56
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    Good evening gentlemen,

    I actually began checking in on this site a few days ago after being kindly invited, and registered - but for whatever reason, today is the first day I have been allowed to post.

    I had, in fact, come to the opinion that hollow points gave no significant advantage over FMJ's and that FMJ's may give a penetration advantage. I have repeatedly observed that being able to reliably reach vital structures is more important than any advantage given by expansion.

    The good DocGKR kindly pointed out the comparable penetration given by the better designed modern JHP's, more sure tissue laceration, and lessened chance of deflection due to nose profile that these bullet designs offer.
    Having, embarrasingly, never considered these issues (the emphasis, to me, had always been on "bigger-is-better" for JHP's), I now see - as I stated in the GT Thread - that there may well be very tangible benefits offered.

    None-the-less, everything else is clearly secondary to proper shot placement and penetration (if the bullet doesn't get there, everything else doesn't matter!) in the incidents I deal with.

  7. #57
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    Thumbs up

    Welcome Lookin4U, I've been following your thread over at GT very closely.
    All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed. Second, it is violently opposed. Third, it is accepted as being self-evident. — Arthur Schopenhauer

  8. #58
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    Welcome. I hope you will find useful information and exchange here. Your post over at GT was one of the most practical and useful discussions I have ever seen regarding real world wounding effects--it should be required reading before anyone is allowed to post wound ballistic information or questions on the internet.
    Last edited by DocGKR; 01-09-10 at 02:22.

  9. #59
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    Quote Originally Posted by Glock17JHP View Post
    I wish someone would invite him over here for a visit... I cannot, since I got myself banned on Glocktalk when I got frustrated with some of the mentality there...
    My handle is glockjeeper on GlockTalk. Both Doc and I, and some others I believe, invited him over here.

    Now I see he's made it. Welcome Lookin4U. There is ALOT LESS BS over here, hence the reason I like it and can't stand GT much anymore.
    "When you go home, Tell them of us and say, For your tomorrow, We gave our today."

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    Well, for all of you here who have not seen my posts of GT, let me go ahead and make you mad to! (LOL)

    First off, I had heard and believed all of my life that if big bullets hit people (specifically .45ACP), the fight is over... with little insignificant bullets like 9mm, you can only hope to cause enough pain to discourage your attacker...

    Nearly every gun writer, certainly they are experts, had espoused this as have nearly every trainer and LE instructor I have heard.

    As a police officer in a large, urban city I began to see shootings, lots of shootings. The first thing that shocked me was that very few of these people died. As a matter of fact, very few of them even appeared to have been measurably slowed down.

    It began to dawn on me that maybe there was more to it than just making a bullet break the skin.

    I began to learn that just being hit by a bullet alone only insured a wound... but nothing else. The bullets actually had to do something, damage something more than just skin, fat, and muscle to be quickly effective.

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