Interesting thread on GT about bullet performance in actual shootings

[bkb0000]

Look into Washington County S.O. (Portland, OR area) case study, for one.

can you give a little more info...? this doesn't tell a guy where to look or WTF he's looking for.

[Glock17JHP]

While I am sure there are measurable terminal benefits to some .40 loads, I remain confident that choosing a 9mm round listed by DocGKR provides me with an acceptable level of performance while maximizing shootability and capacity.

This about sums up my opinion on .45 ACP vs .40 S&W vs 9mm...

I prefer the 9mm, but only personally like about 3 loads... really 2...

[Marcus L.]

Look into Washington County S.O. (Portland, OR area) case study, for one.

Disclosure: I have am a Armiger RBT Instructor certified by Ken Murray (Training at the Speed of Life).

Sounds great, and I'm sure you've got some good experience under your belt.

I worked three years in the firearms division at the Federal Law Enforcment Training Center in Glynco, GA helping to train hundreds of officers working for DOI, ICE, BP, CBP, DOD, and ATF. We covered everything from use of force scenarios with paid role players, urban and rural house raids, active shooter scenarios, IED threat assaults, and of course circa vehicle engagements. Now days I assist the southeast region of the DOI with their firearms division and use of force training. I only "assist" as I still have a beat to patrol, an armory to keep up on, and training fellow officers in my district.

Throwing credentials around gets a little boring.......

Having discussions about combat philosophies is what I think everyone here wants to read about.

[Marcus L.]

This about sums up my opinion on .45 ACP vs .40 S&W vs 9mm...

I prefer the 9mm, but only personally like about 3 loads... really 2...

Yep, after shooting almost 800rds of .40S&W duty ammo yesterday, I can honestly say shooting 9mm isn't has hard on the body.

[Glock17JHP]

Let me be honest here...

I am a civilian... I try to learn and be as informed as possible about things that help me make good choices on firearms and ammo. I have many other interests, some are other sorts of weapons and self defense, but I will focus on firearms and ammo here for obvious reasons.

As a civilian, I feel well armed with a Glock 19 loaded with Winchester Ranger (RA9T). I shoot this weapon better than any of the roughly 40 handguns I have owned over the past 30 1/2 years. The load is one of only three that I was willing to choose from, and it is the most accurate with the combination of pistol and me. I think the penetration and expansion characteristics are just about right for my expected scenarios.

Ditto for my shotgun, which I prefer as a civilian in the scenarios I would expect to encounter. I have owned about 20 long guns in this 30+ year timeframe, about 1/2 were rifles, including AR-15's. My current long gun of choice is a Winchester Defender 8-shot 12 gauge pump shotgun w/synthetic stock. The load I prefer is Winchester Ranger 'Low Recoil' 9-pellet 00 Buck (RA1200). This load patterns at about 4 inches at 30 feet. Penetration is just about what I feel is ideal, again... this is for my expected scenarios. I keep a few Brenneke Tactical Home Defense 1 oz. 'Low Recoil' slugs handy, but to be honest... I don't really expect I will really ever likely need them. I find these 2 loads pleasent to shoot as far as recoil, and I like the performance of both.

I know I would choose other firearms and loads if I were 'on duty' as an LE person... however, I am not. So my needs may be (are) different than others here.

I want to have enough gun to do well, but not so much (as one guy said) that it would be detrimental and get me killed. I also chose the Glock 19 with my family in mind... some of them may need to shoot to defend with that pistol, also, so I want it to be user-friendly for them as well. We shoot as a family, I think that is important!!!

Last point to remember...
I used to view my handgun as my primary home defense weapon... I don't now. A few years ago I was reminded by a friend that a handgun is a poor choice if you have a long gun. Your handgun should maybe be what you use until you can make it to your rifle or shotgun!!! We all debate a lot about handguns and loads, maybe we should discuss long guns more often???

I know handguns are what LE have handy when the SHTF, so I am sure we do need to still talk a lot about handguns, actually... the previous paragraph was more civilian-related...

OK, who's next???

[Marcus L.]

Glock17JHP,

Your logic is sound. I hope you don't think I was somehow putting down the 9mm or something. Just trying to say that 800rds of 155gr and 180gr .40 in one day kicked my ass. I carry 9mm off duty and it is often tempting to just standardize on 9mm for all my needs provided that I purchase quality bonded loads for duty use. My adoption of the .40 was primarily its penetration ability with pretty much any type of JHP on the market. When I order ammo for the govt we put a handful of vendors on a list and the the lowest bidder is selected. Often.......the lowest price is not bonded ammo meaning that the performance of the 9mm may not be ideal against barriers such as windshields.

[SGT D USMC]

shot placement, the other part of the equation, is not as controlable as we often visualize. In vietnam I rarely ever got more than just a flash of the enemy. and even more rarely did I actually get a sure enough center of mass sight picture even if ever so briefly. But the reality of a center of mass shot is that it still is a toss up as to what organs will actualy be hit. And I laugh at people who say they will depend on mulitible hits or head shots to make up for power. I Have never been involved in a urban or inside of a building shooting which might give you a clearer shot.

I believe in having a bullet with as good of terminial balistics as possible because you cannot count on making mulitible hits.

[Marcus L.]

shot placement, the other part of the equation, is not as controlable as we often visualize. In vietnam I rarely ever got more than just a flash of the enemy. and even more rarely did I actually get a sure enough center of mass sight picture even if ever so briefly. But the reality of a center of mass shot is that it still is a toss up as to what organs will actualy be hit. And I laugh at people who say they will depend on mulitible hits or head shots to make up for power. I Have never been involved in a urban or inside of a building shooting which might give you a clearer shot.

I believe in having a bullet with as good of terminial balistics as possible because you cannot count on making mulitible hits.

Thanks for the insight. I agree that there are only brief moments to get a good shot off, and sometimes the only hits you get are less than ideal. I think this is kind of the arguement from page 1 of this thread.......are FMJ just as good as JHPs? From that perspective I would say that JHPs are superior in that they to have a measurable terminal effects improvement and they really offer no disadvantages.

[Glock17JHP]

Glock17JHP,

Your logic is sound. I hope you don't think I was somehow putting down the 9mm or something. Just trying to say that 800rds of 155gr and 180gr .40 in one day kicked my ass. I carry 9mm off duty and it is often tempting to just standardize on 9mm for all my needs provided that I purchase quality bonded loads for duty use. My adoption of the .40 was primarily its penetration ability with pretty much any type of JHP on the market. When I order ammo for the govt we put a handful of vendors on a list and the the lowest bidder is selected. Often.......the lowest price is not bonded ammo meaning that the performance of the 9mm may not be ideal against barriers such as windshields.

Marcus,

No offense was taken at all... I was just trying to put my thoughts out there as to my choices, based on a civilian scenario.

If I were 'on duty' LE, I would likely consider a .40 S&W... but I would want to shoot a few pistols in that caliber. I have only fired a Glock 22 in that caliber, but there seem to be concerns with that particular model. I have not fired the S&W 4000 series pistols, but they might be one I would try.

If I were 'on duty' LE, I would also want an AR-15 clone of some sort, either in 5.56 mm or 6.8 SPC. Again, I would want to compare a few at least. For a shotgun, I might want the Benelli (M4?), and I might favor the Federal Tactical 'FlightControl' LE132 00. I still might not want to bother with slugs, unless I were convinced otherwise.

I am teachable, and have a 'slightly' open mind... pretty good when you hit your 50's, right?

[Marcus L.]

With regard to the .40, you made a wise decision to stay away from the Glocks. Not a very durable platform in .40/.357sig. The DHS bought thousands of Sig P229s during the 2004 contract. After the purchase, they decided that they wanted railed P229s, so they started just giving the non-railed models to other Federal agencies. We snagged a bunch for the southeastern region of the DOI and they have honestly been the best performing Sigs in our inventory.......even better than our P228s and P226s in 9mm. It seems that level of durabilty has carried over into later years. I purchased a P229 in 2008 with a rail and have put about 30k rounds through it in two years. Right now I'm using it in the 2k round pistol challenge and have 2350 rounds through it with no problems. I want to break the 3k mark before I clean it and oil it. So, from experience I can say the P229 is one hell of a .40.

Other .40s which have good reputations are the HK USP line(P2000 too), S&W M&P, and of course the S&W 4006.

As far as semiauto shotguns go, they're great as long as you don't have to clear malfuctions and you use the right ammo. Malfunction clearing takes about 3x as many steps as a regular 870, and you need to keep them maintained versus a 870 which rarely needs a cleaning. Semiauto shotguns really are a finicky system which aren't the best for cops in my opinion. It takes a significant amount of time and attention to keep them clean and lubed properly to keep them working well. That being said, if you can keep them running right they do offer a significant combat advantage in my opinion.