Interesting thread on GT about bullet performance in actual shootings

[DeltaKilo]

Like the other common service pistol calibers, .45 ACP seems to work fine--I've carried a .45 ACP 1911 for the past 25 years, although beginning this year, I am switching to an M&P45. Keep in mind that I am equally happy carrying a 9mm Glock or M&P40.

Very cool, Doc, and thanks for the info. I've been looking at getting an M&P45 with a thumb safety myself, they seem very nice. I tried the Hk45, but while it was great ergonomically, I disliked the decocker and the overall cost of parts and accessories.

[Glock17JHP]

So, err, not to be out of line here, as I truly have enjoyed this thread and welcome new data on all sorts of topics bit...*glances at high-end 1911 sitting in holster*...you guys sure seem to put the .45 ACP right out...starting to make me self conscious of my gun/ammo choice.

In all seriousness, I find that the recoil in my gun is quite manageable with .45 ACP and I can shoot plenty fast with it for self defense.

Is the .45 ACP that bad of a round?

No... the 9mm, .40 S&W and .45 ACP are all good with the right ammo, and within the limitations inherent in a handgun caiber. If you are comfortable with a .45 ACP, and you have it loaded for serious work with good SD ammo... you are doing fine!!!

[Lumpy196]

To save your life in an SD shooting, you want to incapacitate your opponent as quickly as possible. Death is, in and of itself unimportant when trying to stop your opponent from fatally wounding YOU! It does no good to score a fatal hit that will eventually kill your opponent 5 minutes after he beheaded you with a machete...

Sweet mother of Jesus I wish there was a way to implant that in the mushy little brains of 95% of the people who post in any thread about bullet performance...

[DeltaKilo]

Sweet mother of Jesus I wish there was a way to implant that in the mushy little brains of 95% of the people who post in any thread about bullet performance...

I think that that may become my new sig in a few places.

[DeltaKilo]

No... the 9mm, .40 S&W and .45 ACP are all good with the right ammo, and within the limitations inherent in a handgun caiber. If you are comfortable with a .45 ACP, and you have it loaded for serious work with good SD ammo... you are doing fine!!!

I rotate between either Corbon DPX and Winchester Ranger +P. I've studied most of Doc's gospel pretty closely.

[Beat Trash]

I just read all 8 pages of this topic. Interesting.

Looking4U, Welcome...

I'm not Dr. Roberts, so I won't speak for him. While he is a wealth of knowledge, he has in the past tried to simplify the concept. Unfortunately some insist on complicating things anyway.

In the last 18 years + of inter-city Law Enforcement, I have seen people shot with just about every caliber of gun a person can steal. I've seen .25acp kill, I've seen 45acp fail.

I've come to the conclusion that shot placement is paramount. The use of good tactics and shot placement in my opinion is of more importance in allowing me to come home alive tonight than the type of round in my gun.

I think too many worry too much on the type of ammunition they put in their gun.

I've known too many over the years who would buy the latest defensive ammunition available. But they would never shoot any of it in their guns. Too expensive! I'd rather have someone covering me with a 9mm loaded with FMJ who trains often enough to put those rounds where the need to go than someone with the latest round who only shoots at beer cans a few times a year (on sunny days, of course).

Pick a caliber that you feel ok with. Use a reliable gun that you can shoot effectively. Get some competent training. Practice what you learned while training. Pick a round that meets your needs. Buy enough of it to test it in your gun. Then move on.

[200RNL]

Originally Posted by Lookin4U
To save your life in an SD shooting, you want to incapacitate your opponent as quickly as possible. Death is, in and of itself unimportant when trying to stop your opponent from fatally wounding YOU! It does no good to score a fatal hit that will eventually kill your opponent 5 minutes after he beheaded you with a machete...

Sweet mother of Jesus I wish there was a way to implant that in the mushy little brains of 95% of the people who post in any thread about bullet performance...

Once people form conclusions on this subject, it is very hard to change their minds. One hundred years of Thompson-LaGarde and gun magazines has its effects.

[200RNL]

I'd rather have someone covering me with a 9mm loaded with FMJ who trains often enough to put those rounds where the need to go than someone with the latest round who only shoots at beer cans a few times a year (on sunny days, of course).

That statement could have a few people clutching their chests on some forums.

[Entropy]

I've read many dozens of OIS's over the years. Fortunately, I've never had to be part of one. The only conclusion I have been able to draw from those reports is that handguns in general suck. Regardless of what caliber and pistol you choose to carry, practice it enough that you are proficient under a wide range of conditions including with either hand and single hand. Do what you have to do to avoid being shot, move a lot, and make your shots count. You're only as strong as your weakest link, and for most of us that would be shooting with our off-hand. For me, I've mostly shoot 9mm as it makes me a better gun fighter due to its low training costs, reliability, ease of control, and higher magazine capacity.

Now, if the option is there I will almost always grab a 12 gauge.....especially at night or other environments that force the close ranged fight. Once again, you see enough OISs and by far close ranged buckshot seems to do quite a good job. Martin Fackler also commented on this trend in his papers. Obviously this would not be the best option for longer ranged engagements, but you prepare for your environment and seize the combat advantage.

[DeltaKilo]

Once people form conclusions on this subject, it is very hard to change their minds. One hundred years of Thompson-LaGarde and gun magazines has its effects.

It swings the other way, too, though, and you have die-hards who apparently have this idea that because the military uses ball ammunition (based on treaty requirements), that this means ball ammunition is the most effective and no other design could possibly do better or be more reliable...