Page 3 of 9 FirstFirst 12345 ... LastLast
Results 41 to 60 of 177

Thread: Interesting thread on GT about bullet performance in actual shootings

  1. #41
    Join Date
    Jul 2006
    Location
    Palo Alto, CA
    Posts
    3,378
    Feedback Score
    0
    "Correct me if I am wrong, but won't the flat meplat bullets penetrate without tumbling, while the round-nose FMJ's tumble, thus decreasing penetration?"
    Not necessarily. For example, while A475 GI M1911 .45 ACP 230 gr FMJ does not tend to yaw or "tumble" in tissue, the AA18 .45 ACP 185 gr +P truncated cone FMJ issued for the Mk23 Mod0 pistol did yaw, often times turning 180 degrees.

  2. #42
    Join Date
    Oct 2007
    Posts
    3,580
    Feedback Score
    2 (100%)
    Quote Originally Posted by DocGKR View Post
    Not necessarily. For example, while A475 GI M1911 .45 ACP 230 gr FMJ does not tend to yaw or "tumble" in tissue, the AA18 .45 ACP 185 gr +P truncated cone FMJ issued for the Mk23 Mod0 pistol did yaw, often times turning 180 degrees.
    Maybe due to the shorter length of the 185gr? I guess it is weight/caliber specific. Kinda blows that theory out of the water (FP=no tumble).

    I also had another sort of question, what is your opinion of the work done by Maj. Ralph W. French, MAC, USA (Ret.), and Brig. Gen. George R. Callender, USA (Ret.) with regards to terminal ballistics? They tend to focus heavily on velocity and energy, but they have supported their claims well, at least as far as a layman like myself can determine. Here is the particular document I am currently perusing.

    http://history.amedd.army.mil/booksd...s/chapter2.htm
    Last edited by WS6; 01-03-10 at 20:11.

  3. #43
    ToddG Guest
    Quote Originally Posted by Phila PD View Post
    Feed more reliably= Good
    This only matters if your gun doesn't feed modern JHPs properly. And in that case, I'd recommend changing guns, not ammo.

    There are countless combinations of modern handgun and modern JHP that provide the same level of feed reliability as those same guns with FMJ.

    Penetration= Good
    This only matters if your current JHPs are deficient in penetration. Even the FBI -- champion of the deep penetrating handgun bullet -- agrees that beyond a certain point, deeper penetration is not only unnecessary but unwanted.

    There are countless modern JHP designs which provide proven penetration.

    Hollow-point expansion= Does not matter?
    Reduced chance of overpenetration matters. (note: "reduced chance" is not a 100% guarantee that no bullet will ever overpentrate)

    Larger wound track matters. (note: "larger" is not a 100% guarantee that the BG will drop dead instantaneously)

  4. #44
    Join Date
    Jul 2006
    Location
    Palo Alto, CA
    Posts
    3,378
    Feedback Score
    0
    ToddG's comments are right on target, so to speak...

    "I also had another sort of question, what is your opinion of the work done by Maj. Ralph W. French, MAC, USA (Ret.), and Brig. Gen. George R. Callender, USA (Ret.) with regards to terminal ballistics?"
    It is interesting from a historical perspective, but not relevant to today's knowledge base; kind of like reading a surgical atlas from the 1930's--interesting, but it is not what I would want my surgeon to be using when operating on me today...

  5. #45
    Join Date
    Nov 2009
    Posts
    249
    Feedback Score
    0
    Is anyone here familiar with the work of Carroll E. Peters?

    His book, 'Defensive Handgun Effectiveness', published in 1977, fits in well with this discussion.

    Part of his book was based on bullet energy transfer tests done at the Southwestern Institute of Forensic Sciences using 5.9 inches of 20% ballistic gelatin at 10 degrees C .

    In those tests he noted that the W-W .38 Special +P FMJ 150 gr. metal penetrating bullet behaved in a similar manner to a +P lead 158 gr. SWC bullet of the same caliber. It is a truncated conical bullet with a large tangent angle nose shape.

    A bullet using that nose shape should function well in a semiautomatic pistol and could possibly increase the effectiveness of FMJ bullets.

  6. #46
    Join Date
    Aug 2007
    Posts
    705
    Feedback Score
    0
    Quote Originally Posted by DocGKR View Post
    Not necessarily. For example, while A475 GI M1911 .45 ACP 230 gr FMJ does not tend to yaw or "tumble" in tissue, the AA18 .45 ACP 185 gr +P truncated cone FMJ issued for the Mk23 Mod0 pistol did yaw, often times turning 180 degrees.
    May I ask if this load is still used? I understand it was used by US SF when HP was not allowed.

    What is the muzzle velocity of this load, out of a 5" barrel? Is there any noticeable advantage in terminal effect using this load instead of more conventional, std. vel, round nose FMJ 45 ACP ammo? I think at least the 185+P FMJ-FP would penetrate better some barriers.

  7. #47
    Join Date
    Apr 2009
    Posts
    80
    Feedback Score
    0
    I don't have documents to support this, but going from memory of several thousand gunshot wounds where seemingly intact FMJ bullets have been retained in the body, the majority of those bullets have ended up in a base-first presentation (180 degrees from initial). In many cases the bullet 'points' to the entrance wound when viewed radiologically.
    I don't think it is surprising, since the centre of gravity of most bullets is towards the base. At some point during its terminal trajectory, one of these rounds will be presenting its entire length as a 'striking surface' in that wound channel.
    Vincent DiMaio pointed this out in his book "Gunshot Wounds."

  8. #48
    Join Date
    Aug 2007
    Posts
    705
    Feedback Score
    0
    As shown here:

    http://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=19937



    The 9 mm para has a fairly pointed ogive, and looks more unstable than the blunter 380 and 45 ACP FMJ-RN bullets.

    I wonder if there is a way to promote earlier tumbing.

  9. #49
    Join Date
    Jan 2009
    Location
    Florida
    Posts
    529
    Feedback Score
    0
    Quote Originally Posted by TiroFijo View Post
    I wonder if there is a way to promote earlier tumbing.
    There are couple of ways. A more triangular(or tear drop) bullet profile would result in a bullet with a heavier rear that will want to flip more rapidly and/or you can use a spoon tip like was tried in the H&K 4.6mm.

    The spoon tip does a couple theoretical things. It causes a lift/sucking effect on the point based on Bernoulli's Principle through fluids(water/air), and would result in faster destabilization. It also helps to slow down the bullet spin as it is penetration tissue, and thus the bullet is allowed to destabilize. The flat edge of the spoon catches on the tissue to slow down spin. As long as the bullet keeps a significant spin going, it will correct any yawing and straighten out the flight path.
    Last edited by Marcus L.; 01-04-10 at 11:14.
    America is NOT a Democracy......nor should we ever want it to be:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DioQooFIcgE

  10. #50
    Join Date
    Aug 2007
    Posts
    705
    Feedback Score
    0
    Interesting... perhaps a more pointed nose will work. There are many lead 115 gr truncated cone designs (casting molds) that have this "triangular" nose.

    Stability/accuracy is not problem, since the 9 mm twist rate (for tradition?) is much faster than needed: 1-10" vs 1-16" (or slower) in 38/357 that fire bullets up to 180 gr. I've fired many of these TC designs and they grop very well.

  11. #51
    Join Date
    Jan 2009
    Location
    Wisconsin
    Posts
    51
    Feedback Score
    0
    Quote Originally Posted by DocGKR View Post
    There are numerous reports in the medical and forensic literature that show a higher mortality rate with stabbing victims vs. those shot with handgun projectiles.
    This is certainly true when you select data for intentional GSW's and edged weapon wounds (EWW's), and discard all the unintentional/negligent wounds.

    The long-quoted statistic from the American College of Surgeons Advanced Trauma Life Support course is that handguns GSW's have an overall mortality of under 20%. When suicides are subtracted from that number--as they should be, as typically the handgun is in contact with the cranium or in the mouth with subsequent massive brain damage, and as such are almost always lethal--the mortality rate of handgun GSW's drops to under 10%.

    A major metropolitan police force recently concluded a multi-year study of officer mortality when assaulted by felons and concluded that the likelihood of officer mortality from handgun GSWs is about 5%. This, of course, is in a group of persons who wear ballistic vests and have the means and training to shoot back at the felons who have assaulted them. In an unarmored person, mortality would necessarily be higher, but by all estimates still under 10%

    From an emergency medicine & surgical perspective, treatment of handgun GSWs is relatively straightforward. EWW's present a much more complex diagnostic and therapeutic challenge. EWWs that penetrate the thoracic or abdominal cavities have a much higher rate of mortality than handgun GSWs in no small part because of the complexity of the problem presenting to the physician/surgeon.

  12. #52
    Join Date
    Jan 2009
    Posts
    519
    Feedback Score
    0
    Quote Originally Posted by bkb0000 View Post
    this is exactly why i finally made the switch to 9mm after a decade of 45-or-nothing mentality.
    Me too...

  13. #53
    Join Date
    Oct 2008
    Location
    oregon
    Posts
    7,126
    Feedback Score
    7 (100%)
    Quote Originally Posted by DocGKR View Post
    Perhaps I missed it, but I didn't see him making a statement that agencies should issue FMJ's...
    i dont believe he ever explicitly stated FMJs should be used by agencies- but that was the implication of his conclusions, and he did state that he uses and recommends FMJs be used, because they feed better. he didn't state who the recommendation goes to. i'll skim through and find the quote, and ETA it here.

    ETA:

    Post No. 33

    It is my opinion - take it for what it is worth - nothing - that FMJ's are superior to JHP's. They tend to feed more reliably and penetrate more reliably and I have yet to witness anything that would suggest that hollow-point expansion gives any tangible benefit at all in actual shootings...

    Like I originally stated, this is just my opinion but it is based on actual shootings. For anyone who would care to disagree I will be more than happy to review the forensic pathology report you offer as evidence...
    i didn't actually see anywhere where he "recommended" FMJs be used.. i didn't look that hard, as it's a long thread, but i'm willing to admit i might have simply concluded that part in my own mind, based on the comment he did make, quoted above. i've also thought i clearly remembered telling my wife things she has absolutely no recollection of.. maybe i'm partially insane.

    nonetheless, we can infer, based on his statement, that he would recommend people carry FMJs.
    Last edited by bkb0000; 01-08-10 at 16:32.

  14. #54
    Join Date
    Jan 2009
    Posts
    519
    Feedback Score
    0
    I wish someone would invite him over here for a visit... I cannot, since I got myself banned on Glocktalk when I got frustrated with some of the mentality there...

  15. #55
    Join Date
    Oct 2008
    Location
    oregon
    Posts
    7,126
    Feedback Score
    7 (100%)
    Quote Originally Posted by Glock17JHP View Post
    I wish someone would invite him over here for a visit... I cannot, since I got myself banned on Glocktalk when I got frustrated with some of the mentality there...
    it's not too hard to get banned over there- i was banned even before i signed up. literally.

  16. #56
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Posts
    21
    Feedback Score
    0
    Good evening gentlemen,

    I actually began checking in on this site a few days ago after being kindly invited, and registered - but for whatever reason, today is the first day I have been allowed to post.

    I had, in fact, come to the opinion that hollow points gave no significant advantage over FMJ's and that FMJ's may give a penetration advantage. I have repeatedly observed that being able to reliably reach vital structures is more important than any advantage given by expansion.

    The good DocGKR kindly pointed out the comparable penetration given by the better designed modern JHP's, more sure tissue laceration, and lessened chance of deflection due to nose profile that these bullet designs offer.
    Having, embarrasingly, never considered these issues (the emphasis, to me, had always been on "bigger-is-better" for JHP's), I now see - as I stated in the GT Thread - that there may well be very tangible benefits offered.

    None-the-less, everything else is clearly secondary to proper shot placement and penetration (if the bullet doesn't get there, everything else doesn't matter!) in the incidents I deal with.

  17. #57
    Join Date
    Aug 2009
    Location
    Perfection Valley
    Posts
    48
    Feedback Score
    0

    Thumbs up

    Welcome Lookin4U, I've been following your thread over at GT very closely.
    All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed. Second, it is violently opposed. Third, it is accepted as being self-evident. Arthur Schopenhauer

  18. #58
    Join Date
    Jul 2006
    Location
    Palo Alto, CA
    Posts
    3,378
    Feedback Score
    0
    Welcome. I hope you will find useful information and exchange here. Your post over at GT was one of the most practical and useful discussions I have ever seen regarding real world wounding effects--it should be required reading before anyone is allowed to post wound ballistic information or questions on the internet.
    Last edited by DocGKR; 01-09-10 at 02:22.

  19. #59
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Location
    KY
    Posts
    486
    Feedback Score
    1 (100%)
    Quote Originally Posted by Glock17JHP View Post
    I wish someone would invite him over here for a visit... I cannot, since I got myself banned on Glocktalk when I got frustrated with some of the mentality there...
    My handle is glockjeeper on GlockTalk. Both Doc and I, and some others I believe, invited him over here.

    Now I see he's made it. Welcome Lookin4U. There is ALOT LESS BS over here, hence the reason I like it and can't stand GT much anymore.
    "When you go home, Tell them of us and say, For your tomorrow, We gave our today."

  20. #60
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Posts
    21
    Feedback Score
    0
    Well, for all of you here who have not seen my posts of GT, let me go ahead and make you mad to! (LOL)

    First off, I had heard and believed all of my life that if big bullets hit people (specifically .45ACP), the fight is over... with little insignificant bullets like 9mm, you can only hope to cause enough pain to discourage your attacker...

    Nearly every gun writer, certainly they are experts, had espoused this as have nearly every trainer and LE instructor I have heard.

    As a police officer in a large, urban city I began to see shootings, lots of shootings. The first thing that shocked me was that very few of these people died. As a matter of fact, very few of them even appeared to have been measurably slowed down.

    It began to dawn on me that maybe there was more to it than just making a bullet break the skin.

    I began to learn that just being hit by a bullet alone only insured a wound... but nothing else. The bullets actually had to do something, damage something more than just skin, fat, and muscle to be quickly effective.

Page 3 of 9 FirstFirst 12345 ... LastLast

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •