Interesting thread on GT about bullet performance in actual shootings

[200RNL]

I disagree with the premiss that hole size does not matter. Almost every piece of ballistic literature I've read indicates that it is indeed an advantage to use larger projectiles and also to use well designed expansion bullets. There are few that deny the logic behind it.

The question is.....How much more of an advantage?

To keep it simple. What is the difference in effectiveness between a 9mm FMJ and a .45 FMJ? No one can scientifically answer that question.

The measuring stick that has been used up until recent history has been a very old, poorly done early 20th Century test inspired by tightly bound, drugged up and highly motivated religious fanatics who were very resistant to the immediate effects of gunfire.

Judging from what military handgun calibers have been adopted outside of the U.S. , the rest of the world seems to have formed their own conclusions about projectile diameter.

[DocGKR]

WS6—I think you are missing something here; nobody is saying that the initial wounds are identical; what is being stated is that when you go observe the wound tracks later during debridement, surgery, or autopsy, the elastic recoil of the tissue makes it nearly impossible to visually determine any differences between calibers and projectile type. While you may feel that, “.40" and .75" would be visibly different, imho.”, in reality, it does not turn out that way, as noted in my first sentence above. Also, keep in mind that it is quite likely that in numerous shootings, the smooth edges of FMJ’s have allowed them to slip past blood vessels without causing significant injuries; in contrast, if sharp edged projectiles had traveled in the exact same paths through tissue, damage to the vessels would have been substantial—this phenomena has been seen in lab testing as well in OIS incidents. In fact, I have a friend who was shot through the neck by an FMJ, who is likely still alive today due to the bad guy using .45 ACP FMJ, instead of a robust expanding JHP. There is also substantial lab and OIS incident evidence that the larger, heavier calibers (.40 180 gr and .45 230 gr) do a better job at penetrating some types of intermediate barriers, as well as being more likely to crush through bones. Finally, JHP’s are much less likely to get deflected by both intermediate barriers and skeletal bone compared to FMJ’s. Take a look at the OIS statistics for large LE agencies like NYPD that have transitioned from FMJ to JHP and it is quite obvious that there are advantages to using well designed, robust expanding JHP’s.

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Unlike shooting paper, flat point truncated cone type FMJ’s, much like their semi-wadcutter cousins, do not produce larger wound tracks in living tissue compared to standard FMJ’s; on the other hand, as Dr. Fackler has discussed, a true full wadcutter with sharp leading edges can effectively enhance wounding effects compared to FMJ, LRN, and SWC’s.

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I've posted my comments over at GT--"Lookin4U" has listed what agency he works for, his findings for the most part mirror those of other LE agencies and are in concordance with results published in the surgical, forensic, and wound ballistic literature. I am utterly perplexed and astounded that his commentary could have created any sort of controversy given how mainstream his thoughts are...

[bkb0000]

I've posted my comments over at GT--"Lookin4U" has listed what agency he works for, his findings for the most part mirror those of other LE agencies and are in concordance with results published in the surgical, forensic, and wound ballistic literature. I am utterly perplexed and astounded that his commentary could have created any sort of controversy given how mainstream his thoughts are...

the controversial part is where he says FMJs should be used for duty, or at least that he uses FMJs for duty. so when people are reading his words, i think they're reading in the context of his observations being justification for using FMJs. puts a little spin on it.

[DocGKR]

Perhaps I missed it, but I didn't see him making a statement that agencies should issue FMJ's...

[PA PATRIOT]

Posted by the OP,

It is my opinion - take it for what it is worth - nothing - that FMJ's are superior to JHP's. They tend to feed more reliably and penetrate more reliably and I have yet to witness anything that would suggest that hollow-point expansion gives any tangible benefit at all in actual shootings...

Like I originally stated, this is just my opinion but it is based on actual shootings. For anyone who would care to disagree I will be more than happy to review the forensic pathology report you offer as evidence...
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OK,

My whole world of understanding that JHP is good compared to FMJ is bad just got a little cloudy.

Feed more reliably= Good
Penetration= Good
Hollow-point expansion= Does not matter?

But the OP later posted that,

For me, I will always carry a high capacity .40S&W or 9mm, with preference toward the .40S&W for reasons already stated, and at least one spare magazine.

I take it his choice was made due to the following statement,

From my personal observations, I have witnessed that the .40S&W out penetrates commonly encountered cover better than both .45ACP and 9mm... With the 9mm be significantly poorer in this respect than the other two.

I've never seen a miss with a 9mm of one of these structures that would have been a hit with a .45ACP

Also, soft tissue damage in these areas with both .223 and 7.62X39mm is indistinguishable from 9mm, .40S&W, and .45ACP, except that the .223 hole is noticeably smaller (no magical "hydrostatic shock" has been observed).

I've got to admit, the Gold Dot/SXT hype about the jacket tips folding out to form talons that cause additional laceration sounds very intriguing... But a hit is still a hit and a miss is still a miss - and I've yet to see a lethal "nick" (i.e. a miss turned into a hit by expansion).
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I always believed bigger holes means more/faster bleeding but if all the holes are the same no matter what diameter the bullet was due to the elastic nature of live flesh then I guess a good 9mm +P 124gr bullet is all anyone would need.

[PA PATRIOT]

I am not sure why you are confused; it is all basic anatomy, physiology, and physics. Due to tissue elasticity, there is no way to reliably observe the macroscopic differences between a 0.355" FMJ projectile wound track compared with an expanded 0.65" JHP bullet track in live tissue--in no way does that fact negate the potential benefits of a JHP, as previously discussed.

Now I'M really confused, if both wound tracks are Identical (I take it we are taking about non vital live tissue) what benefit does the expanded H/P have?

I'M guessing vital organ hit?

Bigger hole Thur same as organs are not elastic in nature?

[DocGKR]

Phila PD, please note my post to WS6 above addressing this topic:

"I think you are missing something here; nobody is saying that the initial wounds are identical; what is being stated is that when you go observe the wound tracks later during debridement, surgery, or autopsy, the elastic recoil of the tissue makes it nearly impossible to visually determine any differences between calibers and projectile type. While you may feel that, “.40" and .75" would be visibly different, imho.”, in reality, it does not turn out that way, as noted in my first sentence above. Also, keep in mind that it is quite likely that in numerous shootings, the smooth edges of FMJ’s have allowed them to slip past blood vessels without causing significant injuries; in contrast, if sharp edged projectiles had traveled in the exact same paths through tissue, damage to the vessels would have been substantial—this phenomena has been seen in lab testing as well in OIS incidents. In fact, I have a friend who was shot through the neck by an FMJ, who is likely still alive today due to the bad guy using .45 ACP FMJ, instead of a robust expanding JHP. There is also substantial lab and OIS incident evidence that the larger, heavier calibers (.40 180 gr and .45 230 gr) do a better job at penetrating some types of intermediate barriers, as well as being more likely to crush through bones. Finally, JHP’s are much less likely to get deflected by both intermediate barriers and skeletal bone compared to FMJ’s. Take a look at the OIS statistics for large LE agencies like NYPD that have transitioned from FMJ to JHP and it is quite obvious that there are advantages to using well designed, robust expanding JHP’s."

[bkb0000]

Feed more reliably= Good
Penetration= Good
Hollow-point expansion= Does not matter?

But the OP later posted that,

For me, I will always carry a high capacity .40S&W or 9mm, with preference toward the .40S&W for reasons already stated, and at least one spare magazine.

I take it his choice was made due to the following statement,

From my personal observations, I have witnessed that the .40S&W out penetrates commonly encountered cover better than both .45ACP and 9mm... With the 9mm be significantly poorer in this respect than the other two.

hopefully he'll be along himself at some point, but i'll take a stab- he doesn't explicitly state it, at least i didn't see it, but i think we can assume, based on other statements he made, that he'd take a 9emem over a .45 simply because you can get more rounds on target faster. since they perform the same, term ballistically, might as well take more/faster over half the ammo but with better penetration. which i wholeheartedly agree with, personally.

Wondering about this statement,
I've never seen a miss with a 9mm of one of these structures that would have been a hit with a .45ACP

Also, soft tissue damage in these areas with both .223 and 7.62X39mm is indistinguishable from 9mm, .40S&W, and .45ACP, except that the .223 hole is noticeably smaller (no magical "hydrostatic shock" has been observed

I've got to admit, the Gold Dot/SXT hype about the jacket tips folding out to form talons that cause additional laceration sounds very intriguing... But a hit is still a hit and a miss is still a miss - and I've yet to see a lethal "nick" (i.e. a miss turned into a hit by expansion).

here's where i'd have to dissagree. i think he's never seen a "nick" that made the difference because he, for all his experience, hasn't seen everything. simple as that.

i've concluded that bullet size is much less important than bullet shape as it tears through the body. connical FMJs, as Doc has stated, can even push vital blood vessals and probably even organs aside, rather than damage, as they pass through. likewise, i think spitzers are 100% responsible for his experiences with rifle wounds- a spitzer that doesn't fag or even yaw will probably produce a much larger temp cavity than pistol, but still do minimal permanent damage if nothing vital is struck. as Doc has stated, a century of survived war wounds proves that non-fragmenting FMJ spitzers pretty much zip through without much damage... they're shaped to sail through the air, and they'll sail through superficial tissue too.

[PA PATRIOT]

Thank you

[WS6]

WS6—I think you are missing something here; nobody is saying that the initial wounds are identical; what is being stated is that when you go observe the wound tracks later during debridement, surgery, or autopsy, the elastic recoil of the tissue makes it nearly impossible to visually determine any differences between calibers and projectile type. While you may feel that, “.40" and .75" would be visibly different, imho.”, in reality, it does not turn out that way, as noted in my first sentence above. Also, keep in mind that it is quite likely that in numerous shootings, the smooth edges of FMJ’s have allowed them to slip past blood vessels without causing significant injuries; in contrast, if sharp edged projectiles had traveled in the exact same paths through tissue, damage to the vessels would have been substantial—this phenomena has been seen in lab testing as well in OIS incidents. In fact, I have a friend who was shot through the neck by an FMJ, who is likely still alive today due to the bad guy using .45 ACP FMJ, instead of a robust expanding JHP. There is also substantial lab and OIS incident evidence that the larger, heavier calibers (.40 180 gr and .45 230 gr) do a better job at penetrating some types of intermediate barriers, as well as being more likely to crush through bones. Finally, JHP’s are much less likely to get deflected by both intermediate barriers and skeletal bone compared to FMJ’s. Take a look at the OIS statistics for large LE agencies like NYPD that have transitioned from FMJ to JHP and it is quite obvious that there are advantages to using well designed, robust expanding JHP’s.

----------------

Unlike shooting paper, flat point truncated cone type FMJ’s, much like their semi-wadcutter cousins, do not produce larger wound tracks in living tissue compared to standard FMJ’s; on the other hand, as Dr. Fackler has discussed, a true full wadcutter with sharp leading edges can effectively enhance wounding effects compared to FMJ, LRN, and SWC’s.

--------------

I've posted my comments over at GT--"Lookin4U" has listed what agency he works for, his findings for the most part mirror those of other LE agencies and are in concordance with results published in the surgical, forensic, and wound ballistic literature. I am utterly perplexed and astounded that his commentary could have created any sort of controversy given how mainstream his thoughts are...

Thankyou. I do not know enough about the human body in it's deceased state to have thought a lot about that. All of my schooling is about the body in its living state. What you have now posted has brought things back into alignment for me and I understand it now. I plan on spending some time in the ER once I graduate, and then perhapse I can get a real-world picture of trauma. Thus far we have not seen (with our own eyes) anything like a GSW.

Correct me if I am wrong, but won't the flat meplat bullets penetrate without tumbling, while the round-nose FMJ's tumble, thus decreasing penetration? This seems to be born out as 357 SIG FMJ-FP penetrated over 54" of gelatin and slammed into a vest while 9mm only penetrates 30-35" or so. (I know this is beyond the scope of consideration as 30" is...plenty, but just as a matter of fact?)