Interesting thread on GT about bullet performance in actual shootings

[WS6]

WWB 115gr FMJ 9mm indeed did fail to penetrate the car-door I shot up more often than did 230gr WWB .45ACP. Both failed to penetrate it as well as the 124gr +P 9mm loadings and those didn't do as well as .40 and 357 SIG. The worst penetrator on the car door was the 147gr JHP 9mm. It was stopped more often than not if it hit sheet metal going in and attempting to come out the other side.

Keep in mind, a car-door is a rather non-homogonous and complex barrier. Many holes/angles/etc.

SHooting car-doors and an old computer-case really turned me off to the .45 when the 357 SIG and .40 are available though. Any angle at all and that big, slow slug deflects. I plan on doing a penetration test between the 9mm 357 SIG and .45 because I have seen the FBI tests and they say there should be no difference. I feel that I have seen that there is, but I want to test it a little more rigorously.

DocGKR, would it be safe to say that if I placed some pine 2x6's behind some sheet metal and shot it with these various calibers that the one that penetrates the pine the most would also penetrate someone/a block of gel the most after passing through said barries? Obviously there would be no correlation to gel, just a comparison of which round has the most oomph after passing through the sheet metal, or should phone-books be used, or is this just pointless without gel? I don't want to correlate, just compare.

[thermocafe]

Greetings, Lookin4U. Welcome and thanks for your postings.

Back in med school I spent time at Miami-Dade and Broward with the M.E.s and Forensics folks (wonderful people, btw) studying this stuff and doing autopsies. My experience mirrors yours: on a dead person, you can't tell no difference in the wounds. (except maybe powder patterns on intermediate wounds, or the like).

It’s also important to note the difference between DEATH and INCAPACITATION. This seems to cause most of the confusion arising out of these caliber debates.

In my time there, I noticed something interesting: I don't recall being part of an autopsy on a 45AUTO death. Lots of knives, blunt force trauma, MVAs, 9mm, 357, 38spc, a .40S&W and even an accidental jumper. But no .45s?

Looking further back, when first learning about all this I read in Col. J. Hatcher's Textbook on Pistols and Revolvers, where he recounts many stories of the .45 incapacitating magnificently, but not killing. (Great book: even has the documentation and results of the Thompson/LaGarde tests.)

In theory at least, it seems reasonable to conclude that if we can stop our adversary with fewer shots, there will be less likelihood of death. In lots of first-hand accounts I’ve been told and accounts passed down thru reputable sources, it seems that in fact the 9mm does end up being more lethal in a given encounter. Perhaps a greater number of rounds required to end the fight, thus causing more blood loss/tissue damage? There was even a first-hand account on TOS of an officer with a .40 and twelve COM hits, with a thirteenth to the head required to stop the fight.

Anyways, Col. Hatcher further goes on to suggest that if we want to carry the most lethal round, we'd all be decked out with .22 revolvers, as this caliber (used to be, anyway) was responsible for more deaths than any other. A la “stopping inside a victim and setting up an infection that would kill in 2 or 3 days.”

But then, if pure killing power were our aim, we'd either a) all become doctors [a joke: a secret AMA report few years ago in JAMA suggested that doctors accidentally kill more people than the first five causes of death combined], or b) all be carrying edged weapons. So there’s an important difference.

There ARE one-shot stops, and they DO occur with 9mm, too. Of course I’m not arguing the utility of the caliber.

One important point hearing everyone talk about capacity being a motivating factor in weapon or caliber consideration is this: ruling out so-called "bunch shooting" incidents, according to the FBI Uniform Crime Report, Miami-Dade info, and all the way back thru the NYPD SOP6 and the 1967 LAPD study, the average number of shots fired per officer per incident, even among Law Enforcement, is a staggering three. Much less than even the small revolver’s capacity.

So with these ideas in mind, I think it would be reasonable to say capacity is more a comfort matter than a true practical matter.

You get a few shots in a real short time frame, so ya' better make 'em count.

Which agrees perfectly with Chuck Taylor's oft stated opinion to "shoot the most potent handgun/load that you can effectively use." A .22 to the cranium is gonna work, when it’s conceivable that two or three .45’s to the thoracic cavity may not.

None of this is intended as any form of attack, hissie fit, or slight in any way. Just to point out that there ain't no definitive answer to this caliber question yet, and I humbly submit that alternative views are reasonable and also worthy of our consideration.

I haven’t bothered with the GlockTalk thread, as I can do without the aggravation of some of the things that I understand go on over there. Perhaps the reason some may get miffed is the assertion that there is one single caliber that is THE best. Otherwise EVERYONE EVERYWHERE would have standardized on a given caliber.

The only thing I note about a specific “best caliber” argument is that Marshall and Sanow tried that with the .357 and were soundly and loudly rebuked by most of the ballistics and forensics establishment, including Taylor, MacPherson, van Maanan, and Dr Fackler there and here. Dr. Fackler, by the way, did write:

The 9mm115-grain Silvertip bullet which penetrates only 21.1 cm (in ballistic gelatin) is an example of the new generation of lighter-weight/higher-velocity bullets that have been produced as a result of this unfortunate but influential study [the RII].

The critical consideration is that the bullet produce its permanent tissue disruption to sufficient depths to ensure major vessel disruption from any angle. Of the bullets that attain this goal, common sense would indicate that the largest one would be the most effective, since it would put a larger hole in heart or vessels.

Different things work well for different folks. Me personally, I would never carry a 9mm if I didn’t have to (my old agency used to issue Glock 9mm). And it’s interesting that more and more agencies are beginning to standardize on the larger calibers, .40 and .45.

However it also has to be said that street thugs with their garbage .380’s continue to murder Police Officers and get the better of better equipped, more highly trained individuals. Hence Dr. Roberts’ strong suggestion that first and foremost is “cultivate a warrior mindset”. Col. Hatcher recommended the .45ACP for these “enraged and determined foes of tremendous intestinal fortitude.”

But that caliber debate has been going on and on for so long it’s hard to figure out just when it started. Best I got it figured is when the whole 1904 caliber testing began, intensifying when the 9mm Luger was getting promoted back in the 1930’s.

Much the same as the circle completes itself, so with many things we are now seeing full circle. Why, even earlier in this thread, there were several questions that Dr Roberts had to answer multiple times, even though the answer was already provided. So this caliber thing likely won’t end soon.

But that’s the beauty of our Great Nation: we still have the semi-freedom to choose what we want! I don’t have to worry about defending myself with your equipment, and you don’t have to choose my equipment.

With those provisos, and while I humbly disagree on there being a “best caliber”, I say great post!! Very useful info. Thanks, Lookin4U!

[Glock17JHP]

WWB 115gr FMJ 9mm indeed did fail to penetrate the car-door I shot up more often than did 230gr WWB .45ACP. Both failed to penetrate it as well as the 124gr +P 9mm loadings and those didn't do as well as .40 and 357 SIG. The worst penetrator on the car door was the 147gr JHP 9mm. It was stopped more often than not if it hit sheet metal going in and attempting to come out the other side.

Keep in mind, a car-door is a rather non-homogonous and complex barrier. Many holes/angles/etc.

SHooting car-doors and an old computer-case really turned me off to the .45 when the 357 SIG and .40 are available though. Any angle at all and that big, slow slug deflects. I plan on doing a penetration test between the 9mm 357 SIG and .45 because I have seen the FBI tests and they say there should be no difference. I feel that I have seen that there is, but I want to test it a little more rigorously.

DocGKR, would it be safe to say that if I placed some pine 2x6's behind some sheet metal and shot it with these various calibers that the one that penetrates the pine the most would also penetrate someone/a block of gel the most after passing through said barries? Obviously there would be no correlation to gel, just a comparison of which round has the most oomph after passing through the sheet metal, or should phone-books be used, or is this just pointless without gel? I don't want to correlate, just compare.

WS6,

In your first paragraph in the quote you said the 147 grain JHP 9mm was the worst penetrator of a car door you shot up... I have to say, however, that in shooting a car door fairly recently with 3 different loads of that description (Winchester Ranger, Federal HST and Speer Gold Dot), we saw something very different. All 3 of these loads penetrated all the way through the door we shot consistently, unless we struck a major structure within the door... and in similar situations other calibers and loads were also stopped.

I have pictures, and tried to attach one to my post but there appears to be a technical difficulty at the moment...

[DocGKR]

"DocGKR, would it be safe to say that if I placed some pine 2x6's behind some sheet metal and shot it with these various calibers that the one that penetrates the pine the most would also penetrate someone/a block of gel the most after passing through said barries?"

No. Use water.

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I am unclear why there is so much interest regarding penetrating steel with handgun projectiles.

Imagine you are a patrol officer conducting a traffic stop. As you approach the vehicle and move next to the front passenger door, you suddenly notice the driver bringing a pistol up to engage you. Obviously, you are going to move off the line of fire, and will probably begin shooting back at the threat you can directly see engaging you. Now, answer this--are you more likely going to be shooting through the vehicle door/body or the vehicle windows at that point?

[200RNL]

All 3 of these loads penetrated all the way through the door we shot consistently, unless we struck a major structure within the door

That's the problem with everyone comparing car doors they've shot. They are of differing construction and there are alot of things hidden inside.

We would be better off if someone made a slotted rack holding sheet metal panels. We could determine the actual metal penetration of the calibers we are discussing.

That would settle the issue once and for all.

[WS6]

WS6,

In your first paragraph in the quote you said the 147 grain JHP 9mm was the worst penetrator of a car door you shot up... I have to say, however, that in shooting a car door fairly recently with 3 different loads of that description (Winchester Ranger, Federal HST and Speer Gold Dot), we saw something very different. All 3 of these loads penetrated all the way through the door we shot consistently, unless we struck a major structure within the door... and in similar situations other calibers and loads were also stopped.

I have pictures, and tried to attach one to my post but there appears to be a technical difficulty at the moment...

Every car door is different. This was a 1980's crown-vic car door. Rather heavy-duty. OO Buckshot wouldn't penetrate it much past about 30 yards (the OUTER layer!). #4 buckshot wouldn't hardly at point-blank after the pellets spread to strike individually. I saw a LE video on liveleak or something showing #4buck totally perphorating a car-door. Musta been lighter gauge/different material.

I believe this door also stopped a .44mag 240gr JSP when an internal structure was hit, lol. This door did NOT play.

[WS6]

No. Use water.

------------------

I am unclear why there is so much interest regarding penetrating steel with handgun projectiles.

Imagine you are a patrol officer conducting a traffic stop. As you approach the vehicle and move next to the front passenger door, you suddenly notice the driver bringing a pistol up to engage you. Obviously, you are going to move off the line of fire, and will probably begin shooting back at the threat you can directly see engaging you. Now, answer this--are you more likely going to be shooting through the vehicle door/body or the vehicle windows at that point?

I like to drink grapefruit juice. Are those little 3" wide square 64oz "cardboard" containers it comes in suitable?

My interest in this is that I have seen the FBI tests saying that .45 is equal to 357 SIG through sheet-metal. Quite frankly, I don't believe it based on what I have seen. I want to do it myself to see for myself. I was the kind of kid that touched the stove, so to speak (albeit, I didn't use my finger, but rather a paper-towel. Yes. Things went wrong and mom came to the rescue, but that's a story for another time...).

Also, I can see myself shooting through my own windshield. Lots of people here just wanting to start stuff and I have had people act a fool in traffic to the point of getting out of their cars to start stuff. One day I imagine someone might have a weapon and be a little more hot under the collar than most. My windshield would be forfeit, as would my car-door, even though I doubt the doors on my car could stop even a pellet-gun. Lot of "small town" mentality and there is a large military base nearby.

[DocGKR]

"We would be better off if someone made a slotted rack holding sheet metal panels. We could determine the actual metal penetration of the calibers we are discussing."

How exactly do you think the FBI protocol for sheet steel works??? The parameters are well established and of course it is a repeatable, verifiable test, with 20 years of data to support it.

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Milk/juice jugs should work fine.

Shooting from inside a vehicle sounds neat, that is until you try it the first time without eye and ear pro... Unless your vehicle is blocked or pinned in place, why not simply drive away when confronted with a threat?

[WS6]

How exactly do you think the FBI protocol for sheet steel works??? The parameters are well established and of course it is a repeatable, verifiable test, with 20 years of data to support it.

-----------------

Milk/juice jugs should work fine.

Shooting from inside a vehicle sounds neat, that is until you try it the first time without eye and ear pro... Unless your vehicle is blocked or pinned in place, why not simply drive away when confronted with a threat?

My vehicle sits about 5" off the ground. Traffic-lights aren't really a prime get-away place when there are cars in front/cars behind/a ditch to the left, and a wall to the right, like what occured one time when someone wanted to start something and jump out of his truck before he figured out I wasn't who he thought I was (there was another guy who drove a car IDENTICAL to mine a while back that lived here. Apparently he created some problems for himself). Open highway? No problem. Kinda a nice feature owning a sports-car. People tail you? Floor it. 350 horsepower. It fixes most things. City traffic? I'm kinda stuck

Anyways, guy talks some smack at my window and I told him that if he wanted to leave he had better do it now and go get back in his truck with the rest of his buddies. He took my advice and luckily, that was that. Next time I decided that I would 1)be out of the car to meet the threat and/or 2) possess a firearm on my person/in my vehicle so as to be at less of a disadvantage if the individual is armed next time. As it was, the best plan I had was to grab one of his arms and forcefully pull in towards me which would either slam his face into my roof, or force him to stick his head in my car where his eyes would get a thumb. Just not an optimal situation and my decision to remain in the car--sucked, from a tactics standpoint. If he had had a weapon, he would have been more stand-offish so as to use distance in his favor. As it was, he was touching my window sill, so I figured a knife was it, if that. Meaning I would indeed have my chance to grab a limb and execute my (admittedly poor) plan. Again, just conjecture and it ended peacefully, or rather, with noone being banged up.

Oh yes, I do agree. My ears would be crying and I am sure that glass fragments/dust would get blasted all over my interior (read:me). It's certainly not something I would WANT to have happen, that is for sure! Like I said before, I think getting out of the vehicle would be the best option, but I would like other options as well, in extremis. Kinda the reason I buy gold-dots and not just WWB. I like to use the best thing I can, because every little bit is worth something.

I understand that the FBI data is good, solid data and not just some guy blasting at milk-cartons in his back-yard. However, I would like to see it for myself. Based on what I HAVE seen, the FBI data does not correlate with my own experiences and a car door. I want to dig a bit further.

Am I re-inventing the wheel? No doubt. However, I hope to gain experience from it, if nothing else.

In the end, when I graduate and have the money and time, I fully intend on going to a few classes that will give me a better plan than the one I outlined. I have the hardware, now I need to learn how to use it optimally.

[Thomas M-4]

Do the FBI protocols call for single piece of sheet metal or two?