Got Testosterone?

[ABNAK]

Interesting. Thanks.

I fall into the low-risk of recurrence category. Gleason was 6 on biopsy and remained 6 upon pathology report, clear margins, etc. Surgeon told me, when I asked directly, that my chances of recurrence are 10% or less. Just have that nagging 10% hanging over me.

Since I had my prostate removed I figure I either still have cancer cells because some got out, or I don't. It's one or the other.

[WillBrink]

Interesting. Thanks.

I fall into the low-risk of recurrence category. Gleason was 6 on biopsy and remained 6 upon pathology report, clear margins, etc. Surgeon told me, when I asked directly, that my chances of recurrence are 10% or less. Just have that nagging 10% hanging over me.

Since I had my prostate removed I figure I either still have cancer cells because some got out, or I don't. It's one or the other.

Living the rest of my days tired, weak, unable to have sex, etc, etc, is not an option in my view. Your mileage may differ and we all have to make such risk/benefits decisions. I know a number of men post PC on TRT doing well, and as you can see, the data is far from strong T is even a major issue in PC as once thought.

[ABNAK]

Living the rest of my days tired, weak, unable to have sex, etc, etc, is not an option in my view. Your mileage may differ and we all have to make such risk/benefits decisions. I know a number of men post PC on TRT doing well, and as you can see, the data is far from strong T is even a major issue in PC as once thought.

Oh I think the end-result will be me back on T therapy, just want to give it a little longer.

Not to derail and on the same line of thought, but do things like Nugenix really work? I also wonder if the body's own naturally produced T has the same cardiac risks (as well as the others) as exogenous T? In other words what would make the body receive natural T differently than injected T?

[WillBrink]

Oh I think the end-result will be me back on T therapy, just want to give it a little longer.

Not to derail and on the same line of thought, but do things like Nugenix really work? I also wonder if the body's own naturally produced T has the same cardiac risks (as well as the others) as exogenous T? In other words what would make the body receive natural T differently than injected T?

What cardiac risks? That's far from well established and there's pages and pages of studies I have posted here not supporting that, and the evidence consistently shows that hypogonadism is associated with elevated cardiovascular risk. Properly managed TRT should present no cardiac risks, and or, reduce it. OTC T boosters are waste of $:

http://www.brinkzone.com/articles/th...g-supplements/

[WillBrink]

It's well established that healthy T levels, via TRT, can have beneficial effects on body comp. A study assessed whether body composition changes are maintained following withdrawal of testosterone, the cessation of TRT. Not surprisingly, the answer is no it appears:

"The effects of testosterone on body composition in obese men are not sustained after cessation of testosterone treatment," Clinical Endocrinology, 2017 October


METHODS:

A double-blind randomized placebo-controlled observational follow-up study of a randomized controlled trial (RCT)was undertaken.

Participants were men with baseline obesity (body mass index >30 kg/m2 ) and a repeated total testosterone level <12 nmol/L, previously enrolled in a 56-week testosterone treatment trial combined with a weight loss programme.
Main outcome measures were mean adjusted differences (MAD) (95% confidence interval), in body composition between testosterone- and placebo-treated men at the end of the observation period.

RESULTS:

Of the 100 randomized men, 82 completed the RCT and 64 the subsequent observational study.
Median [IQR] observation time after completion of the RCT was 82 weeks [74; 90] in men previously receiving testosterone (cases) and 81 weeks [67;91] in men previously receiving placebo (controls), P=.51.

At the end of the RCT, while losing similar amounts of weight, cases had, compared to controls, lost more fat mass, MAD -2.9 kg (-5.7, -0.2), P=.04, but had lost less lean mass MAD 3.4 kg (1.3, 5.5), P=.002.

At the end of the observation period, the former between-group differences in fat mass, MAD -0.8 kg (-3.6, 2.0), P=1.0, in lean mass, MAD -1.3 kg (-3.0, 0.5), P=.39, and in appendicular lean mass, MAD -0.1 kg/m2 (-0.3, 0.1), P=.45, were no longer apparent.
During observation, cases lost more lean mass, MAD -3.7 kg (-5.5, -1.9), P=.0005, and appendicular lean mass, MAD -0.5 kg/m2 (-0.8, -0.3), P<.0001 compared to controls.

CONCLUSIONS:

The favorable effects of testosterone on body composition in men subjected to a concomitant weight loss programme were not maintained at 82 weeks after testosterone treatment cessation.

Source: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/28561278

[ABNAK]

I can vouch for the above-linked study. I was on TRT for 7 1/2 years before coming off. My skin turgor, vascularity, libido, and muscle mass vs. weight gain are tangible. I originally dropped about 15-20lbs when I started TRT in 2009. When I stopped due to prostate cancer I gained back ~ 15lbs. The only reason I feel I haven't gained more back is my strict adherence, some might say OC, to my usual workout regimen of cardio 5x per week and weights 4-5x per week (depending how I structure my workouts that week). The tone of my muscles, as well as the "looseness", if you will, of my skin is noticeable. TRT gave me taut, vascular skin over [relatively] defined and "swollen" muscles. I guess if you saw me you could still say "Yeah, that guy works out" but not like it used to be.

The difference is noticeable to me.

[Don Robison]

I can vouch for the above-linked study. I was on TRT for 7 1/2 years before coming off. My skin turgor, vascularity, libido, and muscle mass vs. weight gain are tangible. I originally dropped about 15-20lbs when I started TRT in 2009. When I stopped due to prostate cancer I gained back ~ 15lbs. The only reason I feel I haven't gained more back is my strict adherence, some might say OC, to my usual workout regimen of cardio 5x per week and weights 4-5x per week (depending how I structure my workouts that week). The tone of my muscles, as well as the "looseness", if you will, of my skin is noticeable. TRT gave me taut, vascular skin over [relatively] defined and "swollen" muscles. I guess if you saw me you could still say "Yeah, that guy works out" but not like it used to be.

The difference is noticeable to me.

That mirrors my results. I initially dropped 30 pounds on TRT, but in the last 7 weeks of better structured workouts I've dropped two pants sizes, gained 3 pounds and the saggy skin on my chin has tightened up quite a bit.

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[WillBrink]

I can vouch for the above-linked study. I was on TRT for 7 1/2 years before coming off. My skin turgor, vascularity, libido, and muscle mass vs. weight gain are tangible. I originally dropped about 15-20lbs when I started TRT in 2009. When I stopped due to prostate cancer I gained back ~ 15lbs. The only reason I feel I haven't gained more back is my strict adherence, some might say OC, to my usual workout regimen of cardio 5x per week and weights 4-5x per week (depending how I structure my workouts that week). The tone of my muscles, as well as the "looseness", if you will, of my skin is noticeable. TRT gave me taut, vascular skin over [relatively] defined and "swollen" muscles. I guess if you saw me you could still say "Yeah, that guy works out" but not like it used to be.

The difference is noticeable to me.

It will be noticeable to anyone but good on you for sticking it out. BTDT and I know what it feels like to struggle with what was a warm up, due to health related stuff, and how many would give up at that point. You didn't. I didn't. In that is also something to know we can and will dig down and get err done under adverse conditions life hit us with. Many will be done soon as it's less than perfect for them. You're in the gym more than I am these days.

[jpmuscle]

So, can anyone recommend a Doc in NoVa that is more progressive to writing scripts for this stuff?

I want test.....


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[WillBrink]

Interesting potential benefit of TRT in older men:

Long-Term Testosterone Supplementation in Older Men Attenuates Age-Related Decline in Aerobic Capacity

The Journal of Clinical Endocrinology & Metabolism, jc.2017-01902,

Abstract
Context

Testosterone increases skeletal muscle mass and strength, but long-term effects of testosterone supplementation on aerobic capacity (V˙O2peak) in healthy older men with low testosterone have not been evaluated.

Objective

To determine the effects of testosterone supplementation on V˙O2peak

during incremental cycle ergometry.

Design

Testosterone’s Effects on Atherosclerosis Progression in Aging Men trial: double-blind, randomized, placebo-controlled, parallel-group trial.

Setting

Exercise physiology laboratory.

Participants

Healthy men aged ≥60y with total testosterone levels of 100-400 ng/dL (3.5 – 13.9 nmol/L) or free testosterone <50 pg/mL (174 pmol/L).
Interventions

Randomization to 1% transdermal testosterone gel adjusted to achieve serum levels of 500-950 ng/dL or placebo applied daily for 3 years.
Main Outcome Measures

Change in V˙O2
V˙O2V˙O2peak

.
Results

Mean (SD) baseline V˙O2peak was 24.2 (5.2) and 23.6 (5.6) mL/kg/min for testosterone and placebo respectively. V˙O2peak did not change in testosterone treated men but fell significantly in men receiving placebo [average 3-year decrease = 0.88 mL/kg/min (95% CI = -1.39 to 0.38) (P=0.035)]; the difference in change in V˙O2peak between groups was significant, [average 3-year difference = 0.91 mL/kg/min (95% CI = 0.010 to 0.122)], P=0.008. The 1 g/dL mean increase in hemoglobin (P<0.001) was significantly associated with changes in V˙O2peak in testosterone-treated men.

Conclusion

The mean 3-year change in V˙O2peak was significantly less in testosterone-treated men than in men receiving placebo and was associated with increases in hemoglobin. The difference in V˙O2peak change between groups may indicate attenuation of its expected age-related decline; the clinical meaningfulness of the modest treatment effect remains to be determined.


https://academic.oup.com/jcem/advanc...dFrom=fulltext