S&W M&P with Insight MRDS

[nwcatman]

ALSO- in the top pic of ur MP whats the knurled bushing at the end of the bbl. for?

[DocGKR]

nwcatman--the pistol you are asking about has an extended, threaded barrel for attaching a suppressor; the knurled ring is a thread protector used when the suppressor is not attached.

Right now, the simplest and cheapest mini RDS option is the J-Point, which comes with an integral rear sight notch to allow BIS use when the J-Point is milled into the slide, as the picture below of David Bowie's pistol illustrates:

[TiroFijo]

Very good points and discussion... The "testing" part on my side is enough to have a good opinion.

IF I liked a MRDS (which I don't), I would not carry one without a back up iron sight.

May I ask how much faster and accurate are you guys with a MRDS?
At what range do you feel the major improvement is?
Do you have eye problems, or normal eyesight?

In my experience, close range shots (up to 6-7 m) are faster and easier with irons (flash picture). I find the RDS moving with the slide annoying. Then up to 15-20 m I still prefer the iron sights, just as fast and a bit more accurate for precise shots. From 20 up to 75 m the RDS are comfortable and they are not annoying anymore because there is more time between shots. But I can shoot just as well with irons, perhaps a little bit slower. For 75+ m shots the RDS is superior to the irons, comfortable and you can compensate drop faster and easier on the target compared to the irons. I shoot on a local IHMSA range with lots of handguns up to 200 m, so I have a pretty good idea on what normal service or even compact handguns can do at long range. I buy the first shots hits at 100+ m, but 200 m may be streching it a bit...

So, for me, when weighed against the cons RDS don't offer any advantage on a handgun, where most shots are at 25 m or less. It is different on a carbine, because the RDS does not move with the slide, 20-200 m range is where the carbine shines, the bulk of the RDS is lost in a gun of this size, there are no modifications to make on the carbine to mount the RDS, and there are good BUIS.

Even if you are a little faster, do you really believe that being 0.1 seconds faster (in my personal experience and friends is less) per shot is enough advantage to overcome the cons:
- depend on batteries
- bulky, costly, and you have to machine the slide + mount a taller front sight
- durability issues
- clog, mud, dust, rain, scratches, light reflections on the window
- potential loss of zero if dropped or hit accidentally

Something for you to ponder and experiment...

[Steve]

Good points but

i can say this my RMR has been dropped on the cement from holster height about 10 times now with shot taken between each drop giving me repeat hits with no loss of zero

and overall its fun

[MadDog]

I haven't timed myself with a PAC timer but I can honestly say I am considerably faster getting off accurate shots at "any" distance with the Trijicon MRD I have mounted on my M&P. Do you think "all" of the top competition shooters use some sort of red dot whether it be a Docter, Trijicon, C-More, etc because they can get off accurate shots "much" faster at "any" distance or because it is the cool thing to do? I know competition has nothing to do with reality or the real world defense but for them it is all about speed and accuracy and the red dot sight is king.

MadDog

[TiroFijo]

The IPSC open and most other "action" pistols have a RDS mounted on the frame, not the slide, and have muzzle brakes/compensators This way the RDS+pistol moves less and is far less annoying to the shooter .

The IPSC modified division pistols are also compensated, sometimes have a slide mounted MRDS but only because they have to fit in "the box", and the best shooters usually mount the MRDS on the frame for the reasons states above.

And of course the bulk, long term durability/reliability issues, cost, batteries, lack of BUIS, etc. are a moot point on GAME pistols ... not the same thing we are talking here, tactical weapons

You can roll your eyes as much as you want, as I said, I'm stating MY opinion and experiences, not spreading the gospel and trying everyone to blindly agree with me. Not everyone likes the same stuff. Hopefully we are allowed to disagree.

[FromMyColdDeadHand]

Seems like C-mores are the popular sight for Open guns, though I had a hard time aquiring the dot when I shot a buddies open gun. It seemed you had to have near perfect head alignment to shoot it.

Are ports that much of a bozo no-no on a defensive gun? Are the C-mores mounted on frame extensions because of an advantage, or because they ca't handle being cycled?

[MadDog]

These days I see just as many slide mounted optics as I do frame mounted in competition (at least in my neck of the woods). That is probably because Docter, Trijicon, and IMI are making optics that can easilly stand up to the pounding the slide produces. I don't know of anyone that can keep their weapon dead steady and on target under recoil. For that split second under recoil, you are going to loose sight of your dot or open sights. Makes no difference. The closer to the bore your optic is mounted the faster you will be able to acquire your dot again.

MadDog

[Gabe Suarez]

OK guys...I know that this has been a hot topic. Some guys just don't trust anything if it doesn't have a backup sight platform. Well...for guys like that...that want a red dot AND iron sights...maybe this concept is just not for you.

Here is what I worked up.

First off...I know people will disagree totally with me and that is fine, but I am sold on the validity of the RDS on a pistol. And of all the sights I have played with, IMHO, the Trijicon unit is the best. And I sell all of them so I have no interest in one over another. I looked at all of them and the one best suited for pistol use is the RMR. Again, that is my opinion and what I have on my pistol. Now to continue.

Lately we have seen attempts to create an alternative sighting platform in conjunction with existing red dot sights. We have seen the deselection of the Trijicon RMR in some camps because it does not have a built in back up sight while others have been pushing the (now discontinued J-Point 8 MOA) because it has a notch that can be purposed as a BUIS (Back up iron sight).

Well here is what I found out today. I have a JPoint, and two RMR units set up on pistols. I obtained a couple of other pistols set up similarly for JPoint/Trijicon JPoint Copies.

One sight was a Jpoint/Trijicon copy, the others were RMRs. One RMR had a dot on the back, centered to coincide with a front sight that also had a dot. We moved the sights from gun to gun to see if we could mainatin cowitnessing.

Before I go into what I saw, I will explain it. A red dot sight can be zeroed irrespective of any other point on the pistol. Meaning - it does not need to be "aligned" with a front or rear sight, and even if the dot needs to be moved to a farther than centered zero position, to the shooter, not having any additional point to compare it to, will simply look at the target and put the dot on it, and of course...shoot.

The moment you bring in additional points of reference, such as a rear index point (or sight) and a front index point (or sight), bringing all of them into coincidence becomes difficult, unles at least one other of those points is adjustable.

For example...if for instance, you were working with a setup such as the FN45, that has a front sight as well as a rear sight, and has a red dot sight mounted forward of the rear sight (or anywhere on the slide really), the red dot can be zeroed with no issues. Then the sights can be also zeroed to be in coincidence with the dot.

When zeroing a pistol rear sight, one either adjusts it or drifts it in the dovetail. If that rear sight cannot be drifted in the dovetail, the weapon will not be zeroed.

Do you all follow me so far. If not, picture trying to zero a pistol whose sights were immobile and forged with the slide. Could you do it? Nope...the sights would be where they were and only by happenstance would the sights be set for where the shots landed.

See so far?

Now I recall this from a previous discussion. A member of our group contacted Trijicon and they were told the JPoint licensed copy had been discontinued. They then called JP, and were told this by a JP technician -

"You can use the rear notch in a pinch, but it is not designed to cowitness with a given front sight. The JPoint is designed to be used as a dot only. Sometimes the rear notch lines up pretty accurately, but it's pure chance when it does."

OK...got that "pure chance".

I tried it with the JPoint, and on one pistol, it had that "pure chance" situation. Nice. But on the other two, no freaking way. The dot had to be moved either far right or far left of its original point. Now since the eye is expecting that co-witness situation, it gets confused from the lack of symmetry of notches and posts and dots. At least MY eyes do and those of my staff. Not good.

I also tried to add a straight line to the RMR, as well as a white dot just below the spot where the front sight usually pops up in the lower quarter of the window.

Now this is important. If you center up that dot/line, what you get is a nice looking sight picture, but since it cannot be adjusted (you can't drift the entire red dot sight to the right or the left....it is screwed in solid to the slide), your POA-POI will coincide only by chance. So what will happen, and what happened to us was that if you lined up the sights and the dot picture perfect, your shots would be off to the right or the left. Then when you adjust the red dot to get that nice one hole group, you will notice the cowitnessing is off.

So here is the deal. Pre-establishing a sight set up on the red dot unit....no matter who freaking makes it, before the fact, is a losing proposition. It will not work most of the time and if it does, it will be by chance. On all the pistols we used, only one was able to claim same POA/POI for BUIS and Dot.

The ONLY way to make this work is as follows.

Install the dot sight
Zero it with your carry ammo
Then, noting where the dot is, make the mark necessary on the red dot unit so you can have a rough, but good enough co-witness. But that has to be done by the end user and not the factory.

Oh, and the idea of adding suppressor sights to a Glock slide? Like the FN. Sorry...not enough real estate there w/o encroaching on the extractor.

As I said....I am not worried about the lack of BUIS. What I am running now is shown here. Its good enough for head shots at room distances with out the dot and for chest shots out to 15 yards. I have enough confidence in this set up that it has become my EDC.

[nwcatman]

you guys ain't making this decision any easier! so when the balloon goes up and theres no more batteries to be had wouldn't a dot of finger nail polish on the RDS work? it could even be "moved" to be sighted in.