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Thread: I get the feeling that many people don't realize how accurate Iron Sights can be

  1. #1
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    I get the feeling that many people don't realize how accurate Iron Sights can be

    I only wish I had my own targets to post. Alas I am stuck with 100yd ranges near me and I need improvement anyway.


    So let me go ahead and use this gentleman and his Service Rifle* as an example of the capabilites of an A2 with iron sights:

    5 — SFC SINGLEY, GRANT L USA 2385-102x


    SFC Singley placed 5th Overall using the Service Rifle at the 2009 NRA National Highpower Rifle Championship (up to 600yds distance). This event is open to both Match Rifles and Service Rifles.

    http://www.nrahq.org/compete/natpdf/cp400-09.pdf

    A perfect score for this event is 2400-240x

    1 — HOULE, NORMAN G 2387-124x
    2 — BERNOSKY, CARL R 2386-125x
    3 — TUBB, DAVID 2385-133x
    4 — HENDRICKS, JOSEPH W 2385-133x
    5 — SFC SINGLEY, GRANT L USA 2385-102x


    Here is a US Army Marksmanship team video showing A2 rapid fire (40 rnds in 50 seconds) at 600yds on an E-type silhouette (approximately 40” tall by 20” wide) and the resulting group size at the end.

    http://www.usaac.army.mil/amu/Videos/videos.html Click on the 'Service Rifle Team Infantry Trophy' video



    =======================
    * for reference


    Service Rifle http://www.odcmp.com/Competitions/M16.htm

    The 2004 edition of the CMP Competition Rules expanded the definition of legal service rifles by including, for the first time, the M16 A4 rifle. This means that now both the M16 A2, which has been used by service rifle shooters for many years, and the M16 A4, the so-called “flat-top” version with a removable carry handle, or commercial equivalents of those two service rifles, are now legal for use in CMP EIC (leg) or National Trophy Matches. All commercial equivalent rifles must be “of the same type (configuration) and caliber.” Highpower service rifle competitors also may continue to use the M14 service rifle or its commercial equivalent, the M1A.

    The decision to add the M16 A4 to the list of legal service rifles was made because this version is now used in Army basic training and is being issued to many military units including units in Iraq. Rules concerning legal service rifles are quite restrictive. To be recognized as a service rifle, a rifle must not only be a U. S. military rifle, but it must be a rifle that is commonly issued to large numbers of military personnel. CMP Competition Rules do not recognize special purpose military rifles as service rifles because they do not meet this criteria. This is to assure that all service rifle shooters have rifles with similar capabilities.

    Subsequent to making this rule change, the CMP has received many questions about how the M16 A4 or its commercial equivalents must be configured to be legal for use in service rifle competitions. These guidelines seek to clarify and answer those questions. M16 A4 or commercial equivalent rifles must meet the following requirements:

    Carry Handle and Rear Sight. The rifle must be equipped with a carry handle and rear sight that has the same configuration as the carry handle on the M16 A2 (height, type of sight, etc.). No optical sights are permitted. It is recognized that the elevation screw shaft in the M16 A4 removable carry handle must be shorter.

    Carry Handle Location. The carry handle must be attached to the rifle’s “upper” in such a way that the location of the handle and rear sight corresponds with the carry handle and sight location on the M16 A2. This is to assure that the sight radius of all M16/AR15-type rifles remains the same.

    Front Sight. A standard M16 front sight must be fixed in the same location as it is on the M16 A2.

    Upper Handguard. A standard handguard or tube without an accessory rail must be used. The sling swivel can attach to the front ferrule of the handguard or the front tip of the tube in accordance with Rule 6.2.3 (10).

    Butt Stock. To accommodate shooters of smaller stature, a standard butt stock from an M16 A1 rifle may be fitted to either the M16 A2 or M16 A4.


    for further reference here is my Service Rifle:



    A link to the RRA site with the specs http://rockriverarms.com/index.cfm?f...ategory_id=226




    Example of Match Rifle
    http://dynamicarmament.com/items/ar-...fle-detail.htm

    The primary difference to the Match Rifle is the use of diopter sights.





    http://www.nrahq.org/compete/highpower.asp

    High Power Rifle Competition

    For additional information please call the NRA High Power Rifle Dept. at (703) 267-1479
    Courses of Fire
    There are 4 strings of fire which are the basic building blocks of any NRA high power rifle course of fire or tournament. These are:

    1. Slow Fire, standing - 10 rounds at 200 yards in 10 minutes.
    2. Rapid Fire, sitting or kneeling - 10 rounds at 200 yards in 60 seconds.
    3. Rapid Fire, 10 rounds prone - 300 yards in 70 seconds.
    4. Slow Fire, 10 rounds prone - 500 or 600 yards in 10 minutes.

    Every NRA High Power Rifle match for which classification records are kept is a multiple or a combination of one or more of these strings. The popular National Match Course, for instance, consists of 10 rounds slow fire standing; 10 rounds rapid fire sitting or kneeling; 10 rounds rapid fire prone and 20 rounds slow fire prone. Matches fired all at one distance and in one position are known as "single-stage" matches and are usually 20 shot matches (2 times one of the basic strings).

    "Slow Fire" does not require much explanation. The shooter takes his position on the firing line, assumes the prescribed position and is allowed one minute per shot to fire the string.

    "Rapid Fire," on the other hand, is more elaborate. In rapid fire sitting or kneeling, the shooter uses a preparation period to establish sitting or kneeling position; then comes to a standing position and, on command, loads either 2 or 5 rounds (depending on the firearm) into the rifle. When the targets appear or the command to commence fire is given, the shooter gets into the firing position, fires the rounds in the rifle, reloads with 8 or 5 more for a total of 10 and finishes the string. The procedure for rapid fire prone differs only in the firing position and the time spent.

    Equipment
    Rifle: Rifles to be used in High Power Rifle competition must be equipped with metallic sights (Some long range, 1000-yard matches allow the use of "any sights"), should be capable of holding at least 5 rounds of ammunition and should be adapted to rapid reloading. Tournament programs often group competitions into two divisions, Service Rifle and Match Rifle. The rifles currently defined as "Service Rifles" include the M1, M14, M16 and their commercial equivalents. Winchester and Remington have made their Model 70 and Model 40X rifles in "match" versions and custom gunsmiths have made up match rifles on many military and commercial actions. 1903 and 1903-A3 Springfield, 1917 Enfields and pre-war Winchester Model 70 sporters in .30-06 are all equipped with clip slots for rapid reloading. The most suitable rear sights are aperture or "peep" with reliable, repeatable 1/2 minute (or finer) adjustments. Front sights should be of either the post or aperture type.

    Sling: The shooting sling is helpful in steadying the positions and controlling recoil. The sling may be used in any position except standing.

    Spotting Scope: A spotting scope or a substitute optical device is important for scoring and observing the placement of shot spotters on the target. The beginning shooter will benefit from the use of about any telescope which gives an erect image. The most suitable spotting scopes, however, have a magnification of from 20 to 25 power and an objective lens at least 50mm in diameter. Eyepieces angled at 45 to 90 degrees are convenient for using the scope without disturbing the shooting position.

    Shooting Coat: The shooting coat is equipped with elbow, shoulder and sling pads which contribute to the shooter's comfort. Since there are several styles of shooting coats of varying cost, the shooter is advised to try out several types before making an investment.

    Shooting Glove: The shooting glove's primary function is to protect the forward hand from the pressure of the sling. Any heavy glove will serve the purpose until the shooter makes a final choice among several shooting gloves available.

    Sight Blackener: The shooter using an exposed front sight such as the blade found on the service rifle will require some means of blackening the sight. A carbide lamp will do this job or a commercial sight black sold in spray cans can be used.

    Scorebook: If the shooter is to learn from experience, they should record the conditions and circumstances involved in firing each shot. Sight settings, sling adjustments, wind and light conditions and ammunition used all have a place in the scorebook. Actual shot value is the least important data recorded.

    Ammunition: Most competitors eventually turn to handloads. Careful handloading will yield ammunition less expensive and more accurate than otherwise available. Both tracer and incendiary ammunition are prohibited by NRA Rules and armor-piercing ammunition may be prohibited by local range regulations.

    Long Range Competition
    NRA rules provide for slow fire prone competition at ranges beyond 600 yards. The Palma Match is one such event. It is conducted at distances of 800, 900, and 1000 yards. Some of these matches permit the use of telescopic sights.

    Reduced Distance
    High power rifle shooting at the full regulation distances requires a range with firing lines at 200, 300 and 600 (or 500) yards.

    Every official NRA stage or course of fire normally conducted at 200, 300, or 500 yards can be run at 100 yards on the NRA official reduced targets. The SR-1 target simulates the 200 yard target; the SR-21 is the 100 yard equivalent of the 300 yard target and the MR-31 gives the same appearance at 100 yards as the normal 600 yard target does at the full distance.

    Because of their small size, the reduced targets are well adapted to being hung on stationary frames. Because of the short distances involved, it is practicable to walk down to the targets after each string and remove them for scoring elsewhere or to score them on the frames. The use of stationary target frames eliminates the complications that sometimes arise when the number of shooters on the line is not equal to the number of target operators in the pits.
    Reduced 300 and 600 yards targets are also available for firing at 200 yards. The NRA can provide a list of target sources, including reduced targets.

    High Power Sporting Rifle
    The High Power Sporting Rifle Rules were introduced in 1985. This variation is fired with hunting type rifles which may be equipped with telescopic sights. The course is fired at a single distance - either 100 or 200 yards - and rapid fire strings are only 4 shots to accommodate the typical hunting rifle.
    Last edited by danpass; 04-06-10 at 12:34.
    Dan Miami, FL

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    I don't think anyone on here is saying that they are inaccurate. Posting an extreme example however,does not do too much for your cause, whatever it may be since no one on here is saying that iron sights are inaccurate.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Littlelebowski View Post
    I don't think anyone on here is saying that they are inaccurate. Posting an extreme example however,does not do too much for your cause, whatever it may be since no one on here is saying that iron sights are inaccurate.
    Right.

    Slower? Yes. Inaccurate? No.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Littlelebowski View Post
    I don't think anyone on here is saying that they are inaccurate. Posting an extreme example however,does not do too much for your cause, whatever it may be since no one on here is saying that iron sights are inaccurate.
    Whenever the subject comes up about training guys out to 600m (see the Taking Back .5k thread) they bitch about being able to hit targets at 300m with 4x ACOGs.


    This is for the naysayers. The example does plenty since it shows that with proper training a soldier can hit out to 600 with iron sights. The video alone illustrates it
    Last edited by danpass; 04-06-10 at 12:00.
    Dan Miami, FL

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    Like mentioned above, this is an extreme example.

    For this, you are shooting at a 60 inch wide bull at 600 yards. The ability of iron sights to align with precision at a 60 inch wide bull at this range is pretty good, hence you can get good groupings.

    Even if you hit the 6" X ring every time, your ability to resolve a 6" target through match iron sights (let alone standard non-hooded rear aperture and standard front sight) isn't going to be very good. You will loose precision as your sight picture/alignment are not as reproducible and you will shoot larger groups.

    Again, the above discusses an extreme example where the sights and targets are designed to benefit the shooter.

    While I'm not a naysayer, I just wanted to point out that shooting these large bulls with match grade service guns allows for groupings that don't have much bearing on any other style of shooting.

  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by danpass View Post
    Whenever the subject comes up about training guys out to 600m (see the Taking Back .5k thread) they bitch about being able to hit targets at 300m with 4x ACOGs.


    This is for the naysayers. The example does plenty since it shows that with proper training a soldier can hit out to 600 with iron sights. The video alone illustrates it
    With a looped sling in the prone, right? Extreme example. I've done it myself out to 500 in the Marines. Doesn't mean it's the solution. This is a tactically oriented forum so realize folks are talking about doing more than sitting there on the KD course carefully applying sight black and cinching up that sling.

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    E-type Silhouette

    This is one of the E-type silhouette targets shot in the National Trophy Infantry Team Match. It ain't a bullseye, and in the real world it's not going to stand still after the first shot kills someone -- but it will give a shooter and coach feedback on how he's holding.

    600- and 500-yard targets are exposed for 50 seconds -- it's the shooter's job to get as many hits (with iron sights and a sling) as fast as he can hold. The 6-man team gets extra points for hits from farther out. Eight targets are hoisted up in the air, so the farthest left and right shooters have to "Swing" between targets 1&2 and 7&8.

    Teams get a points bonus if all targets have a minimum number of hits (I believe at 600 it's 6 or 7 hits).

    The number on the score board is the number of hits on-target. I don't know if this was a 600 or 500 target, but a really good gunner can get 40 aimed shots off at 600 in 50 seconds.



    You can see what look like four 5.56mm miss holes right, left, and high.
    Last edited by sinister; 04-06-10 at 12:30.

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    Quote Originally Posted by UVvis View Post
    Like mentioned above, this is an extreme example.

    For this, you are shooting at a 60 inch wide bull at 600 yards. The ability of iron sights to align with precision at a 60 inch wide bull at this range is pretty good, hence you can get good groupings.

    Even if you hit the 6" X ring every time, your ability to resolve a 6" target through match iron sights (let alone standard non-hooded rear aperture and standard front sight) isn't going to be very good. You will loose precision as your sight picture/alignment are not as reproducible and you will shoot larger groups.

    Again, the above discusses an extreme example where the sights and targets are designed to benefit the shooter.

    While I'm not a naysayer, I just wanted to point out that shooting these large bulls with match grade service guns allows for groupings that don't have much bearing on any other style of shooting.
    the shooters in the video are firing on an E-type silhouette (approximately 40” tall by 20” wide) at 600yds.

    op updated


    edit: looks like someone beat me to it


    .
    Last edited by danpass; 04-06-10 at 12:32.
    Dan Miami, FL

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    I think the term "accurate" is being misused here.

    When I think of iron sights, I think more difficult to use. Those that have mastered them have spent some serious time behind the wheel.

    I have shot 3-gun with a guy that shoots irons and at that time he placed in the top three 3-gunners in the area. That doesn't make iron sights better, it only indicates that this guy knew how to shoot and shoot well.
    "The sword is more important than the shield, and skill is more important than either. The final weapon is the brain. All else is supplemental." John Steinbeck

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    Every time I'm at a 600 yard match with a scoped bolt action rifle, and someone with an iron sighted AR outshoots me, I am made acutely aware of what irons are capable of.

    However, my ability to identify a target at 600 yards with even a 1-4 scope, let alone a 4.5-14, is much better than theirs...

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