Irons vs. Reddots

[KevinB]

I grew up on irons, and one day the Army gave me an optic, and that basically was my transition.

We used to shoot to 600m with irons, as well as do CQB. I truly beleive that irons are the basics that give the shooter an understanding of the platform, and external ballistics, specifically the trajectory.

After 9/11 I did a little optics test, using irons, EO's, Aimpoints, ACOG and ELCAN's.
In close with the shooter static under perfect conditions, the average iron shooter was faster, and had better shot locations on the targets (the various letargets.com offerings). However when lighting and target movement where entered in, the even basic drills like an El Presidente (okay a tgt shifting version) the EO and Aimpoint cleaned up.
Add in shooter movement, target movement, various lighting situations, and our of 40 shooters - some who had no previous CCO experience, only Irons and C79 Elcans) the EO (551 and 552) outshot everyone else, with the Aimpoint (Comp M2 and M3) a close - but noticeable second.

Now, ideally I think you start with irons. However if little Ms. SoccerMom is buying an M4, I say get the Aimpoint M4S or T1 - leave it on all the time, and that is all you teach her.
Why -- she and the vast majority of gun owners will never take enough training to master the system, it takes hundreds of thousands of rounds to get used to something akin to mastery. There are probably less than 40 of us on the board that have shot over a million rounds thru a M16FOW, and I don't call myself a master.

In that case, I do think that getting the most bang for the 'buck' is to just teach the CCO.

[rob_s]

Sometimes it's not what's best, but what is practical.

Bingo!

Look, I am not trying to make absolutes or lump everyone into one category as everyone is different,

If this is too much time or money to invest in doing something right for the sake of you and your family, then I think that persons priorities are a bit screwed up.

Wow, talk about contradicting yourself.

Here's another idea, why not save the money on that red dot sight and apply it to good instruction and ammo for the class?

That *sounds* all well and good, and many of us here repeat the same thing quite often, but it's nowhere near approaching reality.

I have one fiance and she has one son. Time commitments between them and work are HUGE, and I cannot imagine if I had another kid, or if I was trying to support an ex-wife and a new wife, a sick wife, parent, or child, or all manner of other realities that come into play.

"If you don't spend the time to get familiar with iron sights then you're not serious about training" is not only an absolute it's an absolute load of shit, and frankly it ignores the reality not only of time constraints but also of the needs of the end-user.

You're pretty much making the argument for starting with optics for me, frankly. Given the reality that the shooter has a limited amount of time available to train, AND a very limited need for the carbine to begin with, starting out with the optic is the best way to get "good enough" in as little time as possible.

I want my cake, and I want it now seems to be common this day in age in many things, not just shooting. Very sad IMO.

Easy to say, but as I posted above you can stamp your feet and bitch about it or accept the realities and make the best of it. You're not going to change it, either way.

[Redhat]

So are you guys running a BUIS?

If so do you practice with it at all?

[JimT]

So are you guys running a BUIS?

If so do you practice with it at all?

I do deploy and practice with my BUIS on occassion. Not as much as I should, but do work in the training regimen.

[shadow65]

Yes I do. Like I said, red dots do go down.

[RogerinTPA]

So are you guys running a BUIS?

If so do you practice with it at all?

Yes, but not as often as I should. Training with RDSs have me spoiled.

[Surf]

Wow, talk about contradicting yourself.

C'mon now Rob, I never contradicted myself. My first post and what I asserted throughout the entire topic is it is my belief that if you utilize a weapon for a defensive purpose, than it is worth your effort, no, your obligation to become highly proficient and irons first is the route to take. Now if little Suzy soccer mom wants to punch paper on Tuesday nights for entertainment have at it. There are differences and I never said otherwise.

edit - Now if lil Suzy soccer mom decides she want to get serious and use a weapon to defend her little brood, then she owes it to herself and her clan to get her ass some top quality instruction and become proficient with the fundamentals, again via irons. As has been mentioned, it does give you a better grasp on many aspects of shooting.

[Surf]

So are you guys running a BUIS?

If so do you practice with it at all?

Can't speak for others, but for myself, my teaching rifle is in the exact same configuration as what we issue our guys (my working rifle is different set up). Since we strip it down to basics to get everyone up to speed on fundamentals and get the entire group on the same page we start with fundamentals and irons. Because of this I run the exact same set up and therefore train irons only quite frequently. I train this way because it helps to keep me sharp and I don't want to look like an ass when I teach.

edit - I have really been meaning to run some drills where tenths or hundreths of seconds count on a timer, both iron and red dot at CQB ranges just to compare them. Something like the VTAC 1-5, 2/2/2, 2/1/1 etc...I know what I run the 1 to 5 drill with a dot on a IDPA target. Would be interesting to compare with irons.

[Surf]

There are probably less than 40 of us on the board that have shot over a million rounds thru a M16FOW, and I don't call myself a master.

That is a lot of darn rounds. Never kept that close of a count.

Anyway, I think mastery of the skills, means that we know what they are, how to correctly apply them and can perform these skills. This does not mean that we will be perfect all the time under all conditions. Hell even Tiger Woods makes mistakes. Sometimes even on the golf course.

[HeavyDuty]

So are you guys running a BUIS?

If so do you practice with it at all?

I try really hard to do half my shooting RDS off using the BUIS.

Some would say I'm just being realistic and prudent - after all, I'm running EOTechs.