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Thread: The S&W M&P problem thread

  1. #1
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    The S&W M&P problem thread

    After hearing reports of extraction and failure to reset issues, I am opening a thread for rational discussion from experience on the S&W M&P. Focus is on known widespread or repeatable problems.

    Please speak from experience and check all emotions at the door.

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    I have a mailing label at the house to send back my wife's M&PJG for a slide release that requires far too much effort to use and my PT.com M&P for no less than 7 failures to reset the striker in the last 1k rounds. Also the tritium insert in the front sight of the PT.com gun is now gone. Sending them out next week.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Littlelebowski View Post
    After hearing reports of extraction and failure to reset issues, I am opening a thread for rational discussion from experience on the S&W M&P. Focus is on known widespread or repeatable problems.

    Please speak from experience and check all emotions at the door.
    *Notification: we are a S&W LE Dealer, fan of the M&P and certified factory amorer.*

    Failure to Extract (9mm)

    M&P's in 9mm have issues with shallow rimmed 9mm casings (Winchester White Box) and has been an issue since the early days of the M&P. About a year ago, S&W changed the extractor on them to resolve this issue. The way you can tell if you have an old extractor or not is by the roll pin holding the extractor in. The hollow roll pin tells you that you have the old extractor. A solid roll pin means that you have a new extractor.

    Why haven't we heard more about this issue? Several reasons for this. First, most people don't shoot enough to find it or don't shoot WWB ammo. Second, extractors can vary in spec. So some will be worse than others. Third, the tightness of the chamber plays a roll in this as well.

    Personally, I own an early M&P with the "bad" extractor. I have never had any issues with any types of ammo. So this problem is hard to nail down as it shows itself randomly.

    Failure to reset (trigger)

    This problem can occur when using the S&W performance center sear or/can happen as well with the APEX sear (only one case reported so far to APEX). Two possible reasons for it happen. The dog ear on the trigger bar is not open enough (reset too far to the rear) or the trigger bar is not angled enough to properly trip the sear.

    Why haven't you heard about this more issue? Very few people run a PC or APEX sear. Every trigger bar is different (to include the angle in which it interfaces with the sear and the opening of the dog ear). It is a vary sporadic thing and most M&P users will never encounter this issue.

    I am running an APEX sear in my gun and have no reset issues.


    The above description of the problems and fixes are to the best of my knowledge.


    C4

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    Quote Originally Posted by Aray View Post
    I have a mailing label at the house to send back my wife's M&PJG for a slide release that requires far too much effort to use and my PT.com M&P for no less than 7 failures to reset the striker in the last 1k rounds. Also the tritium insert in the front sight of the PT.com gun is now gone. Sending them out next week.
    The tritium issue has nothing to do with S&W. Trijicon is the problem child with that one.


    C4
    Last edited by C4IGrant; 04-28-10 at 12:10.

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    I had failure to extract issues with a new extractor and 9mm Winchester NATO ammo. It was only shot during the first 400 rounds of the gun's life, and hasn't reappeared in the 2500 rounds since.

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    Since we are talking about issues with the M&P, there is another one. It is called auto forwarding and S&W is aware of it (and has lost contracts because of it).

    Some (this would include me) have no issues with auto forwarding. All M&P's do it, but how hard you have to insert the mag to get it to happen will vary from gun to gun.

    We worked up a new slide catch for the M&P and gave it to S&W at Shot Show. It made it much harder for the gun to auto forward, but was still easy to release (hard thing to do). They are currently T&Eing it.

    For those that don't know, most all handguns can be made to auto forward. Some are just harder to do than others.


    C4

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    PM coming.

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    javentre just sent me a pic of a scratched up breech face. S&W is like any other manufacturer and puts out bad ones. Make them pay for it! Call them up request a return authorization number and ask them to issue a call slip so you don't have to pay for shipping.



    C4
    Last edited by C4IGrant; 04-28-10 at 12:50.

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    Quote Originally Posted by C4IGrant View Post
    About a year ago, S&W changed the extractor on them to resolve this issue. The way you can tell if you have an old extractor or not is by the roll pin holding the extractor in. The hollow roll pin tells you that you have the old extractor. A solid roll pin means that you have a new extractor.
    Isn't it the other way around? I thought early guns had a solid pin that S&W replaced on the line, as the solid pins got mushroomed by ham-fisted armorers. I seem to recall a conversation about this subject at my armorers class, but that was a few years ago.

    Perhaps the roll pin was the replacement for the early solid pins, now they've gone back to solid pins as the newest thing?

    For me the most vexing issue for the M&P has been striker breakage. When I get home, I'll post a pic of my first gen striker that went kablammo after many thousands of dry fires (and a few thousand live fires as well). I ASSume it's a first gen striker, because I ASSume I have a first gen gun. If someone has pics of all of the generations of strikers (I saw Gen 5 on grtactical.com today!) I'd love to see them. Especially if anyone knows if/how S&W has changed the manufacturing process for that particular part. AFAIK, it started out as a MIM component without any sort of coating, but a black finish. The newest pics I've seen are either coated with a glossier finish or are made of a different material.

    The other big issue I have with box-stock M&Ps is the weird bump I get when dry firing them. It takes significant effort with a new gun to hold the front sight steady. Admittedly my sample size is small (4 guns) but every one, including a NIB Pro, has a bump when the striker lets go. Not being the most savvy person in the world, I want to put it on overtravel, but I'm not 100% sure that's what's doing it. This has sorted itself out on my most used gun, so I'm fairly certain it's a gun thing and not a me thing.
    Principles matter.

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    I have a regular M&P9 purchased in January 2009. I have a solid pin, so according to Grant's post, I have the new extractor. Still have problems with WWB, which I now avoid or save for other guns. No other problems to report.

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    Quote Originally Posted by subzero View Post
    Isn't it the other way around? I thought early guns had a solid pin that S&W replaced on the line, as the solid pins got mushroomed by ham-fisted armorers. I seem to recall a conversation about this subject at my armorers class, but that was a few years ago.
    No. I have current production M&P's (9mm and 40) and they have a solid pin. Current 45 M&P's have a coil pin.



    Perhaps the roll pin was the replacement for the early solid pins, now they've gone back to solid pins as the newest thing?
    S&W says that they will eventually put coil roll pins in everything. For right now though, they are not.

    For me the most vexing issue for the M&P has been striker breakage. When I get home, I'll post a pic of my first gen striker that went kablammo after many thousands of dry fires (and a few thousand live fires as well). I ASSume it's a first gen striker, because I ASSume I have a first gen gun. If someone has pics of all of the generations of strikers (I saw Gen 5 on grtactical.com today!) I'd love to see them. Especially if anyone knows if/how S&W has changed the manufacturing process for that particular part. AFAIK, it started out as a MIM component without any sort of coating, but a black finish. The newest pics I've seen are either coated with a glossier finish or are made of a different material.
    Look at you scopin out my website for M&P parts! Just for that, I am going post a pic of the new GEN 5 strikers. S&W says that these are good for 70,000 dry fires!

    The other big issue I have with box-stock M&Ps is the weird bump I get when dry firing them. It takes significant effort with a new gun to hold the front sight steady. Admittedly my sample size is small (4 guns) but every one, including a NIB Pro, has a bump when the striker lets go. Not being the most savvy person in the world, I want to put it on overtravel, but I'm not 100% sure that's what's doing it. This has sorted itself out on my most used gun, so I'm fairly certain it's a gun thing and not a me thing.
    This is due to the trigger setup. Install an APEX sear and it is gone.


    C4


    GEN 5 Striker


    Last edited by C4IGrant; 04-28-10 at 13:43.

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    After reading subzero's post, my M&P9 is the same.

    For the longest time, I thought I was physically unable to execute a perfect trigger press because the front sight often moved. Upon further examination, my slide shifts a bit sideways on the frame when the trigger is pulled. My M&P45 does the same thing.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Vinh View Post
    I have a regular M&P9 purchased in January 2009. I have a solid pin, so according to Grant's post, I have the new extractor. Still have problems with WWB, which I now avoid or save for other guns. No other problems to report.

    Correct. The other variable is the chamber. Polish it and see if you still have an issue.

    If that does not help, then you most likely have a bad extractor. So I would either send it back to S&W or just buy the new APEX extractor.


    C4
    Last edited by C4IGrant; 04-28-10 at 13:46.

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    Quote Originally Posted by C4IGrant View Post
    No. I have current production M&P's (9mm and 40) and they have a solid pin. Current 45 M&P's have a coil pin.





    S&W says that they will eventually put coil roll pins in everything. For right now though, they are not.
    Then I'm fuzzy on this issue. My 2006/2007 (Rev N, MPF-prefix) M&P 9 FS has a solid pin. If the hollow coil pin / roll pin is supposed to denote something, what is it, exactly? My gun runs fine (2 failures to extract, both with the same lot of AA&A reloaded FMJ out of 3400+ rounds, mostly WWB). However, the 3 Pros I've seen at local matches have all exhibited extraction issues. All guns (spanning from 2006/2007 to present) have the solid pin.

    The Pros seem to be more problematic than the standard guns. I know the extraction problems are predominately in the 9mm guns, and there are no .40 Pros yet (so that can skew the stats). Has anyone else witnessed this?

    (Additionally, I've been meaning to pick up a new striker. You've got the latest revision strikers on your website, but not the complete striker assemblies?)
    Last edited by jh9; 04-28-10 at 14:46.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Aray View Post
    I have a mailing label at the house to send back my wife's M&PJG for a slide release that requires far too much effort to use and my PT.com M&P for no less than 7 failures to reset the striker in the last 1k rounds. Also the tritium insert in the front sight of the PT.com gun is now gone. Sending them out next week.
    Just out of curiosity, is the slide stop spring copper (coat-hanger) colored, or is it silver with blue paint?

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    We experienced two failures-to-reset today with our PTC gun.

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    One FTE with a 9mm Pro. It has the solid pin. The FTE was with WWB ammo.
    Dark Star Gear

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    My gripe with the M&P I own is terrible accuracy. The gun has S/N prefix "MEP" and it's terrible off the bench. I became suspicious of it when I noted that during some LAV type bullseye work that it wasn't shooting to my shot "call" at 10 and 15 yards.

    I tested it off the bench to eliminate as many variables as possible and Eureka!...I have an M&P that shoots consistent 8 - 10" groups with several handloads and three factory loads at 25 yards. All of those loads group within 2.5 - 3" in my Glock 17s and 19s.

    Any thoughts on this issue?
    www.hardwiredtacticalshooting.com

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  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by jh9 View Post
    Then I'm fuzzy on this issue. My 2006/2007 (Rev N, MPF-prefix) M&P 9 FS has a solid pin. If the hollow coil pin / roll pin is supposed to denote something, what is it, exactly? My gun runs fine (2 failures to extract, both with the same lot of AA&A reloaded FMJ out of 3400+ rounds, mostly WWB). However, the 3 Pros I've seen at local matches have all exhibited extraction issues. All guns (spanning from 2006/2007 to present) have the solid pin.
    Good question. I called my LE Rep and asked him about the pins being used. It appears that S&W mights have used different pins throughout 2006-2008 depending on what they had available.

    So if your gun runs (which it sounds like it does), don't worry about it.

    The pro's you watched, are running the old extractor's and that is the problem. Remember that every gun is different. Some will have issues with the WWB ammo and others will not.

    The Pros seem to be more problematic than the standard guns. I know the extraction problems are predominately in the 9mm guns, and there are no .40 Pros yet (so that can skew the stats). Has anyone else witnessed this?
    The Pro models just means that they have different sights and sear. Nothing to do with the extractor.

    (Additionally, I've been meaning to pick up a new striker. You've got the latest revision strikers on your website, but not the complete striker assemblies?)
    We just sold out of the strikers, but have more coming and have ordered complete assemblies.


    C4
    Last edited by C4IGrant; 04-28-10 at 16:41.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Wayne Dobbs View Post
    My gripe with the M&P I own is terrible accuracy. The gun has S/N prefix "MEP" and it's terrible off the bench. I became suspicious of it when I noted that during some LAV type bullseye work that it wasn't shooting to my shot "call" at 10 and 15 yards.

    I tested it off the bench to eliminate as many variables as possible and Eureka!...I have an M&P that shoots consistent 8 - 10" groups with several handloads and three factory loads at 25 yards. All of those loads group within 2.5 - 3" in my Glock 17s and 19s.

    Any thoughts on this issue?
    Is it a 45? A local customer had a bad barrel (horrible groups) with his 45. Sent it back and got a new barrel.

    Remembe that M&P 9mm barrels are setup for + P ammo and typically shoot the best (accuracy wise) with hotter ammo.

    I don't shoot + ammo so I switched out to a Storm Lake barrel which is geared more towards standard loads.

    C4
    Last edited by C4IGrant; 04-28-10 at 16:40.

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