Irons vs. Reddots

[kwelz]

No this isn't a "which is better" thread. However while teaching a frond to shoot I got to talking to the guy at the next table over. He had a stock AR made by DTI. Obviously not my choice but I didn't have an AR with mebi asked if I could run his for a minute.

To my astonishment It shot great. I found it easier to acquire end hit targets out to about 100 yards more easily than I normally do with my BCM using an Aimpoint.

I am now really bothered by this. I think I may start my next build as a irons only and see how it does. Has anyone else ever found they are better with irons over optics? Or am I just losing it?

[markm]

Has anyone else ever found they are better with irons over optics?

Duh YEAH!!!

People too often use "technology" (the RDS) as a crutch rather than thinking outside the old box and learning how to effectively deploy irons.

For sure the RDS has value in specific instances. But people too often just ape the notion that the RDS is faster without really knowing what they're regurgitating. You still have to pick up the dot and put it on the target. And if you're snapping your iron sighted AR to your cheek consistently there's none of this sight alignment horse shit that you hear from the instructors who get FREE aimpoints.

[Jay Cunningham]

Red dots are great.

Iron sights work well but red dots have advantages in certain circumstances, such as poor lighting and shooter/target movement.

At a recent shooting school, our instructor said "your red dots just died" and a collective groan arose - but not from me. I had been practicing with irons about 50% of the time, working up to that class.

I smoked everyone in position shooting with irons against some very experienced shooters. So the "crutch" argument is true I think to a certain degree...

[Mac5.56]

My thoughts are pretty open minded regarding this at the moment as I just got my first red dot, an Eotech XPS2, and I have about five hundred rounds with the site. I favor iron/open sites on my rifles, as I have never felt completely happy with optics until I purchased this red dot. I think a large portion of the shooting population utilizes optics to compensate for poor marksmanship, and they ultimately improve very little in regards to their actual shooting.

My hunting rifle in the woods out here is a 30.30 with irons that I am capable of hitting 6inch dots at 140 yards. I ran my MP15 for the last year with irons and make very similar if not more accurate hits with this gun.

In regards to the comparison, well I am not sure. I REALLY like the Eotech right now. I'm getting hits on targets that I am more then happy about, and I could see how it may
"be faster" in regards to target acquisition. The thing I really like is that my left eye is actually naturally opening up while I fire, and this feels really comfortable for some reason, and completely counter intuitive to how I shoot EVERYTHING else.

But to quote my friend at the range the other day: "I feel like this optic is really great at getting rounds on target, within the target, but my groups don't feel as tight." I seconded the thought. My groups feel a little looser, but they are still well within what is acceptable for me.

Being competent in irons though should be everyones absolute 1st priority in owning any firearm.

[JonnyVain]

Red dots are great.

Iron sights work well but red dots have advantages in certain circumstances, such as poor lighting and shooter/target movement.

At a recent shooting school, our instructor said "your red dots just died" and a collective groan arose - but not from me. I had been practicing with irons about 50% of the time, working up to that class.

I smoked everyone in position shooting with irons against some very experienced shooters. So the "crutch" argument is true I think to a certain degree...

Poor lighting is the main reason I have a red dot.

That said, I am considering simplifying and going to tritium sights.

My thoughts are pretty open minded regarding this at the moment as I just got my first red dot, an Eotech XPS2, and I have about five hundred rounds with the site. I favor iron/open sites on my rifles, as I have never felt completely happy with optics until I purchased this red dot. I think a large portion of the shooting population utilizes optics to compensate for poor marksmanship, and they ultimately improve very little in regards to their actual shooting.

My hunting rifle in the woods out here is a 30.30 with irons that I am capable of hitting 6inch dots at 140 yards. I ran my MP15 for the last year with irons and make very similar if not more accurate hits with this gun.

In regards to the comparison, well I am not sure. I REALLY like the Eotech right now. I'm getting hits on targets that I am more then happy about, and I could see how it may
"be faster" in regards to target acquisition. The thing I really like is that my left eye is actually naturally opening up while I fire, and this feels really comfortable for some reason, and completely counter intuitive to how I shoot EVERYTHING else.

But to quote my friend at the range the other day: "I feel like this optic is really great at getting rounds on target, within the target, but my groups don't feel as tight." I seconded the thought. My groups feel a little looser, but they are still well within what is acceptable for me.

Being competent in irons though should be everyones absolute 1st priority in owning any firearm.

To me, that's where co-witness comes in. I can drop my gaze into the ring and have my irons with the dot on top, making it more accurate. The ring also sharpens the dot for those of us with astigmatisms.

[Zhurdan]

Poor lighting is what natural point shooting is for. Red dots are a luxury, and should be treated as such. Train with them as much as you can, but don't forget how to "unplug the toilet" so the speak. Learn irons first, far beyond putting rounds in the X on a rest. If you can't do what you can do with the Red dot with the irons, make it a priority to be able to do so. (pending lighting of course).

I shoot just as well with my irons as I do with the Red dot, simply because I couldn't afford a red dot for years. So, I shot irons. I did drills, I learned holdovers, I ran irons as hard as I knew how at the time.

Then, I got a red dot. I took the same approach to it as I did the irons. At the recent Magpul Class in Pueblo, I ran the last drill clean, and if I remember correctly, in 4.2 seconds(correct me if I'm delusional). (The Three targets, 1,2,3,4,5 drill). I've practiced that drill before, for sure, and I understood my limits. What I'm getting at is... my personal best on that drill... WAS WITH IRON SIGHTS! Red dots are awesome. I love them, but don't discount the still building that comes with shooting irons. It'll pay off.

[scottd907]

Iv found it easier to shoot with iron sights lately. I started with a red dot, then scope and never started with irons. So after getting it down. Its how its said, point and shoot as quick as you can. Most of the time its a for sure hit.

And i keep trying to think of what im seeing in my head as i do these shooting motions. With irons, in this order, you see your target, the front sight, then the back sight. Which makes your target seem smaller. Which probably in your mind, means less wobby or shake because your target isnt as big as your screen as you read this now. Like it would be with a X power'd scope or in the red dot's case. The diameter of the tube. Someone correct me if im wrong or if this makes no sense at all.

Scott

[TehLlama]

It doesn't surprise me much, when I go to irons I focus on more on fundamentals.
In low light, you're not going to make faster hits than with a red dot, but it's not as though irons didn't work great before reflex sights were around.
Glass really starts to make more sense for the more experienced presbyopic shooters, but it does help.

[OTO27]

The biggest advantage I find on an optic such as eotechs or aimpoints is that you can keep both eyes open. In LE this is a huge advantage. I however find my self making more accurate shots using irons.

[rif4trbo]

I just got my new issue of swat magazine and Pat Rogers has a great article on this very subject