KAC SR15, worth it?

[hitman1012]

Every company can put out something that has a hiccup or two. But, I am starting to love my SR15's more and more all the time. I went out today and ran some drills with the SR-15 and my Noveske. Neither missed a beat and shot great. But, the Knights is noticeably smoother. I mean by a good bit. It shows when you engage multiple targets with quick shots. Trust my I love my Noveske's and they are awesome but the SR-15 is too. I am actually torn between selling off another Noveske and picking up another SR. So, in my opinion they worth every penny.

[YVK]

When using a particular batch of Wolf 55gr ammo, I had some short stroking issues that resulted in a few failures to feed with my SR-15. It would very weakly eject the spent casings, and would randomly short stroke and I'd get a "click" instead of a "bang" on an empty chamber. No biggie, I just switched to my PMC 55gr, which a lot of people believe to be pretty weak ammo, and it was fine after that.

So it's definitely possible he was using weak ammo that would cycle properly in his SR-15, but when he used the same ammo in his other carbine that (most likely) had a larger gas port, it cycled fine in that one.

If I was told correctly by someone I trust much more than most, the SR-15 has a slightly smaller gas port, which (among a few other things like the longer than mid-length gas system and E3 bolt) causes it to recoil much less and smoother than other 16" carbines, even

Paul, I don't know what ammo Mike used to troubleshoot that rifle, but what you're describing is most likely what was happening with that rifle.
Obvious argument here is whether smoother action should take precedence over reliable functioning with wide range of ammo. I am not sure why we get into dichotomous philosophy here "small gas port vs huuuge gas port". How about "just right gas port"? My BCM and MSTN have had zero malfunctions and shoot very smoothly, and, conversely, people take high shooter in classes using all kinds of rifles so smooth action may not be that important.

Every company can put out something that has a hiccup or two...

That's the essense of a question. Is there a price point for a product after which we should expect no hiccups at all? Is it an individual decision, or should there be some industry or community standard?

My personal opinion that at 2000+ bucks a rifle should first and foremost run reliably across wide variety of ammo - even underpowered one - because, remember, just recently we were happy to get any ammo and whatever we have now is still sparce and overpriced; feature set and subtleties such as smooth action come after that. Others, obviously, may disagree.

[Belmont31R]

Paul, I don't know what ammo Mike used to troubleshoot that rifle, but what you're describing is most likely what was happening with that rifle.
Obvious argument here is whether smoother action should take precedence over reliable functioning with wide range of ammo. I am not sure why we get into dichotomous philosophy here "small gas port vs huuuge gas port". How about "just right gas port"? My BCM and MSTN have had zero malfunctions and shoot very smoothly, and, conversely, people take high shooter in classes using all kinds of rifles so smooth action may not be that important.



That's the essense of a question. Is there a price point for a product after which we should expect no hiccups at all? Is it an individual decision, or should there be some industry or community standard?

My personal opinion that at 2000+ bucks a rifle should first and foremost run reliably across wide variety of ammo - even underpowered one - because, remember, just recently we were happy to get any ammo and whatever we have now is still sparce and overpriced; feature set and subtleties such as smooth action come after that. Others, obviously, may disagree.

That depends on the shooter. For the record Ive shot quite a few 223 loads out of my gun, and not had issues. I don't really think "potential" problems with really weak ammo is the rifles fault. Simply put the AR was designed in the 1st place as a military gun shooting military ammo. Today the commercial AR is basically the same thing sans the FA trigger group. If you are shooting super cheap weak ammo you are operating the gun outside of its design. Just like I mentioned earlier we were shooting Brit ammo for training, and was told it could cause reliability problems so it was training only.

I personally like the fact the gun runs so smooth even with 556 ammo. I dont have a problem shooting quality 556 stuff, and try to stay away from the Wolf type loads that have caused problems for me even with mil spec uppers.

If someone wants a gun to run whatever cheap weak ammo they can through their gun there are plenty of other options that come with oversized gas ports. While someone may consider it a plus their gun can run this weak stuff they are going to pay for it if they ever shoot full pressure 556 loads.

As regards to a potential problem rifle if its man made it can fail. The price should mean it happens less but certainly not that it never happens. In fact I view part of a higher price as meaning if I do have a problem Im going to get taken better care of than if I bought the cheapest product I could get. Just like if I bought a BMW Id expect better deal service than from Honda.

Last....KAC is not the only manufacturer to recommend 556 loads. I believe BCM has said the same thing about their 14.5" middy.

[No.6]

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That's the essense of a question. Is there a price point for a product after which we should expect no hiccups at all?
....

And the argument has been stated that if you buy a Colt or other upper price range rifle and add the extras that KAC has as standard (SOCOM stock, rail, etc) on the SR15, that you end up at the same, or near the same price. In other words the basic rifle stripped of all the extras should perform equally well. If it doesn't, then where's the value?

[YVK]

That depends on the shooter. For the record Ive shot quite a few 223 loads out of my gun, and not had issues. I don't really think "potential" problems with really weak ammo is the rifles fault. Simply put the AR was designed in the 1st place as a military gun shooting military ammo. Today the commercial AR is basically the same thing sans the FA trigger group. If you are shooting super cheap weak ammo you are operating the gun outside of its design. Just like I mentioned earlier we were shooting Brit ammo for training, and was told it could cause reliability problems so it was training only.

I personally like the fact the gun runs so smooth even with 556 ammo. I dont have a problem shooting quality 556 stuff, and try to stay away from the Wolf type loads that have caused problems for me even with mil spec uppers.

If someone wants a gun to run whatever cheap weak ammo they can through their gun there are plenty of other options that come with oversized gas ports. While someone may consider it a plus their gun can run this weak stuff they are going to pay for it if they ever shoot full pressure 556 loads.

As regards to a potential problem rifle if its man made it can fail. The price should mean it happens less but certainly not that it never happens. In fact I view part of a higher price as meaning if I do have a problem Im going to get taken better care of than if I bought the cheapest product I could get. Just like if I bought a BMW Id expect better deal service than from Honda.

Last....KAC is not the only manufacturer to recommend 556 loads. I believe BCM has said the same thing about their 14.5" middy.

Belmont, this is a very good example why threads ("value-related") don't really have an answer because values are individual. Your position is well-stated and if one takes mil-spec 5.56 ammo as the only standard, then there is little to argue about.
My position is that my 14.5 ML BCM (aftermarket cut-down) has shot Wolf, PMC, UMC, S&B, Black Hills, Hornady practice, Hornady TAP, and Hornady T-2. I've had zero hiccups with weaker ammo and I am not sure what price I am paying with hotter loads. Appropriate grip and stance kept rifle on target with any of those loads, and if my rifle gets battered sooner - I am fine with that; again, individual preference.
BTW - unverified data so I take no responsiblity - but I am told that Wolf is loaded to SAAMI specs. Anybody knows differently?

I agree that all man maid will fail; I don't agree with defective products leaving the factory. I agree with you that higher price should mean better CS. However, I'd also want to have better QC. So if their high pricing in fact means higher level of QC and each rifle passes it, then perhaps I am not in touch with reality. Because, the way I see it, if QC is stringent and each piece of product passes it, how would lemons happen then? Unless there are no lemons and then the whole discussuin is pointless.

No. 6, I am not sure I understand your post.

[Belmont31R]

Belmont, this is a very good example why threads ("value-related") don't really have an answer because values are individual. Your position is well-stated and if one takes mil-spec 5.56 ammo as the only standard, then there is little to argue about.
My position is that my 14.5 ML BCM (aftermarket cut-down) has shot Wolf, PMC, UMC, S&B, Black Hills, Hornady practice, Hornady TAP, and Hornady T-2. I've had zero hiccups with weaker ammo and I am not sure what price I am paying with hotter loads. Appropriate grip and stance kept rifle on target with any of those loads, and if my rifle gets battered sooner - I am fine with that; again, individual preference.
BTW - unverified data so I take no responsiblity - but I am told that Wolf is loaded to SAAMI specs. Anybody knows differently?

I agree that all man maid will fail; I don't agree with defective products leaving the factory. I agree with you that higher price should mean better CS. However, I'd also want to have better QC. So if their high pricing in fact means higher level of QC and each rifle passes it, then perhaps I am not in touch with reality. Because, the way I see it, if QC is stringent and each piece of product passes it, how would lemons happen then? Unless there are no lemons and then the whole discussion is pointless.

No. 6, I am not sure I understand your post.

Im not exactly sure what KAC's QC is on the entire gun but I noticed the most amount of use when I opened the box on mine than any other gun Ive ever bought.

And yeah that's why I opened my post with it depends on the shooter. There are plenty of people out there that see a need to be able to shoot the weakest ammo out there. Also why I said there are plenty of other guns on the market.

SAAMI spec is not the spec the AR was designed to be used with. My opinion is simply that it doesn't really bother me if a "mil spec" gun will not run on "non mil spec" ammo. Just like if I loaded my car which requires premium with regular, and I got issues, Id blame the gas not the car.

To be blunt...in the end I don't really care if someone doesn't like the SR15 because it may have issues with weak ammo. That person is not using the gun as designed or intended. If someone is using the gun within the intended limits, and they still have an issue then the manufacturer should fix the gun as quickly as possible. Ive not seen any QC issues out of the ordinary with the SR15, and several shooters who's opinion I value who shoot the gun have said above average comments about it. One of the reasons I bought mine in the 1st place. I think in the end there would be a lot more reliability in general with the AR platform if companies making these guns stuck to the mil standard (or exceeded it), people kept up with maintenance, and use quality mil spec ammo. Another thing to keep in mind in these types of boards is generally only the "issues" come up, and not the positives. We can have a 5 page thread about one guy who had an problem with a gun we dont know the cause of, and for this one problem there are 20...maybe 50 guys with the same gun who have had nothing but reliable service. Ive certainly got guns and combos of stuff Ive never mentioned on here. The main point is to ask questions, and seek help. You find much more "problem" threads than "this has worked for me". Its not interesting to read about some XYZ gun that hasn't had a problem. Just like with military guns some incident leads to some questioning about the entire platforms reliability such as the battle in Afghanistan with multiple individual weapons. Yet nothing is mentioned of such basic principles of maintenance, cleaning, and usage on those weapons. It means nothing if someone has issues at 7k rounds yet fail to mention they've never replaced the gas rings, recoil spring, cleaned the weapon, etc.

[hitman1012]

Belmount, Good post. I do not get it why it is such a big deal if Wolf ammo has issues. I personally do not shot Wolf so this is a non issue for me as well. The logic is if this ammo shoots out of whatever other brand gun then the KAC is inferior. To me that is not necessarily the case. It would be different if there were issues with alot of different types of ammo. I think some people have these end of the world scenarios were they are scavenging for ammo and god forbid they only have WOLf ammo then the gun is useless. So, the KAC is not the right gun to have! Since this is one and million scenario and you can buy any type of ammo off the shelf and feed it good stuff why is this such a concern. I guess I am just confused.

[YVK]

Belmount, Good post. I do not get it why it is such a big deal if Wolf ammo has issues. I personally do not shot Wolf so this is a non issue for me as well. The logic is if this ammo shoots out of whatever other brand gun then the KAC is inferior. To me that is not necessarily the case. It would be different if there were issues with alot of different types of ammo. I think some people have these end of the world scenarios were they are scavenging for ammo and god forbid they only have WOLf ammo then the gun is useless. So, the KAC is not the right gun to have! Since this is one and million scenario and you can buy any type of ammo off the shelf and feed it good stuff why is this such a concern. I guess I am just confused.

I don't think it is really an issue of end-of-the-world thing for most people. I don't shoot Wolf regularly too, but being able to do so made a difference in ability to attend Magpul class in early 2009 when no other ammo could be had.

I agree, Belmont's post covers it well. I think in a course of this discussion we established that KAC gas system is set up for mil-spec standards, after all, mil contracts have been KAC's priority for a long time. Therefore, it is entirely possible that KAC won't cycle reliably with lower-powered ammo - not necessarly Wolf alone since Wolf appears to be loaded to commercial SAAMI specs (which, as Belmont pointed out, are not as hot as mil specs). This may mean absolutely nothing to some people like majority of folks in this thread, or mean a lot to others like me. That's all to it, I guess.

[taliv]

i couldn't tell you how many rounds I have through my SR15 E3, since I stopped keeping track of every round last year.

I love the configuration. It is the best AR I have owned, easily besting the Noveske/Magpul limited edition, 6920, BCM, etc. As a lefty, I especially like the ambi controls.

My major complaint is that accuracy is teh suq with my favorite ammo (prvi m193). 3-4" five-shot groups at 50 yards! It's kind of sickening. That said, it will shoot 1 hole groups with the 80g SMK handloads I use at the 600 yrd line for CMP/NRA High Power competition. Of course, those are expensive as balls and can't be magazine fed, so I had to compromise and shoot 75 and 77g handloads now, when I'd really prefer factory ammo.

I have seen a couple guns in my life like this that were ammo-sensitive, so I figure I just got unlucky. I may buy another one to see if my luck improves.

The gun has been reliable too, up until my last range session when 2 rnds of factory ammo failed to feed (PMAGs). Now i'm wondering if I have a problem or not.

I didn't make it to a carbine class yet this year due to work, but hopefully later in the fall I can give it a proper workout.

[No Bananas]

Taliv,
How's the SR functioning? Any more issues?