VT Hackathorn/Vickers Low Light Class #1 AAR

**John_Wayne777** · 05-14-07, 12:54

Originally Posted by subzero

This class was unique in that Vickers and Hackathorn actually acted as two lead instructors, one teaching carbine stuff, the other teaching pistol stuff. This was my third (I think) class with LAV, and I’m familiar and comfortable with how he goes about instructing. I can only hope the “short bus crew” doesn’t find themselves to greatly offended to realize that LAV was only helping them out by getting on them the way he did. It was my first time training with Ken Hackathorn, and it seems as though he and LAV are cut from the same cloth.

Interesting....

Could you give a description of what "getting on them" means?

I've only done a two day training with him, but even in that short of a time span I learned that he'll ask you what the window you are licking tastes like when you do something wrong....

- As previously mentioned, once we got started I got yanked out of my comfort zone pretty quick. After a quick warmup, you’re doing stuff most of us don’t get the chance to do on our square ranges at home.

Sounds familiar.

I had the same experience in the AK class. I was extremely frustrated with my performance because I have a number of training courses under my belt and yet I felt like a rank noob. I thought it was mostly the unfamiliar platform, but Larry's approach to movement and a number of other things is different than what I have trained on before.

It's possible, I suppose, to become too familiar and too comfortable with certain ways of doing things. Having someone come along and shake things up a bit is a good thing.

- Two rifle magazines plus one in the gun, 4-5 1911 mags plus one in the gun seemed to be enough to not hold up the rest of the group.

Larry doesn't like to have people burn too much ammo during a course. When we took the AK class he said that he tries to stick to a max of around 400 rounds a day because in his experience that's the most useful shooting you can get out of someone in a single day.

I would be interested in hearing exactly what about the course challenged folks, as in what particular drills the found monkeying them up, etc.

**CarlosDJackal** · 05-14-07, 13:31

I was one of those people who brought a lot of crap to this training course. This included two backup carbines and two backup pistols. Why? Because I would hate to spend all that time and money to go to a training course only to sit on the sidelines and watch instead of participating.

Of course, there is usually someone willing to loan out their equipment, but I have seen this play havoc where the piece of equipment is not zeroed or set up to the user thus interfering with the training (individually or to the group). As we used to say in the Arctic: "I'd rather have it and not need it, than need it and not have it."

For the most part I also chose to wear my plate carrier (with and wihtout the plates) and the all the mags I can carry on it so that I can identify any kind of equipment issue that may affect my ability to fight. This gave the opportunity to actually use pieces of equipment that I have the rare chance to use (IE: Kevlar helmet).

Any kind of task that is done in low-light or no-light will amplify your deficiencies. In my case one of my most glaring deficiency was the use of the basic fundamentals of marksmanship in both the carbine and pistol. To say it bluntly, my accuracy sucks. The great thing about this course was there were two very competent instructors who caught onto this very early and kept emphasizing this fact throughout.

The fault lies purely on me - I just have not spent enough time practicing these fundamentals at the range or at home. Not to make excuses, but my work schedule has not allowed me to visit the range with the great regularity I need in order to maintain my proficiency. The hangun I used in the course (Glock 35 with ITI M-3 light) is my duty handgun and in the last six months I have only shot a grand total of 100 rounds thought it and this was done in two qualification sessions for the Sheriff's Office. Pretty sad, isn't it? I've shot even less of any of my carbines in that period.

My final round count for this course was 620 rounds for my carbine and 330 rounds for the pistol (both approximates). As much stuff as we were put through, I was surprised at this count. It seemd like the round count should have been higher. Despite this, the downtime was not only very minimal but the range sessions were very fruitfull. This very much falls in line with both Instructor's emphasis on quality versus quantity when it comes to your shots.

In trying to make notes (during the drive home - since I was not driving) the lessons I learned from this course, I found myself at a loss. I can recall a lot of these lessons and put them to use, but cannot put it down on paper. It is like these were somehow "programmed" into my hardware without the use of written code. However, the most relevant technique that I was able to write down were the two malfunction clearance drills that was very optimized for both day and night use. These techniques are now an important part of my AR skills toolkit.

For me, the most relevant of the three-day course was the second day (the longest day). The amount of information that was thrown at us could fill quite a few pages (if I could pen them down

). If you ever get a chance to take this course but can only attend a single day, opt to attend the second day. NOTE: I am neither advocating nor recommending that anyone try this because the course was thaught using the tried-and-true "crawl-walk-run" method of instruction. Each day builds on the previous one.

Bottom line is, if you've never found the boundaries of your "comfort zone" in using either the carbine or pistol; attend this class and you probably will. If you do attend this course and do not find yourself challenged, you should probably consider organizing and teaching a similar course of your own.

This is also not a first timer's course. If you have never taken any kind of (quality) carbine or handgun course, you would be doing the rest of the class, the instructors, and yourself a great dis-service by attending this course. Just the safety aspect of having a new shooter who may not be as well-versed in safe gun-handling can easily put the others at risk (I actually witnessed a couple of cases of this and took what I thought was the appropriate actions).

I learned some new techniques and received some very pragmatic/realistic answers to some of my questions. Personally, this is how I like it. It is virtually impossible for any one person to have all of the answers and I am very suspicious of anyone who can come up with a specific answer to very general and situation-dependent questions. Neither Larry nor Ken tried to blow smoke up out fourth-points-of-contact. CAVEAT: I have yet to attend any tactical, academic, or technical course where I agreed with the instructor(s) 100%. The day that I find myself in such a situation is the day that I die because I am probably learning from God Almighty himself. Until then, I just take note of the lessons and do a continuous (objective) evaluation of these both during and after the class.

My Tactical Toolbox has once again been replenished and is once again overflowing. Now I need to take the time to use these new tools along with the old ones in order to determine which ones I can keep and which ones I should set aside.

Muchos kudos to Larry, Ken, and those who assisted them this weekend. I look forward to a course that could possibly build upon this one (hint-hint); if they allow me to attend it anyway.

ADDED: I held off purchasing a Vickers sling because I did not understand what its advantages were over what I already had. Fortunately, Grant of G&R Tactical was attending this course and had one that fit my setup and hooked me up (Thanks Grant!!). The sling works as advertised and will be getting a workout and possible more of a review.

NOTE: Did you know that the Vickers sling was named after the same guy to whom the Vickers scoring system was named after?

ADDED: Based on what we were shown and what we were told, I am almost convinced on the merits of having a laser mounted on your fighting handgun. I'm seriously considering getting one for my duty gun (Glock 35) for further self-evaluation.

**C4IGrant** · 05-14-07, 14:49

Where to begin. I guestimate that I have over four-hundred hours of tactical carbine and pistol training (not counting what I got in the Navy). So it is somewhat hard to hit me with something that makes a REAL impact in how I shoot or operate. This class taught me many new things and has greatly improved my night fighting techniques. Take this class if at all possible!

My two favorite parts of the class were getting the oportunity (thanks Larry) to run my DBAL-A2 and my PVS-14. I used no white light and engaged targets standing and moving. With this capability, it was like shooting fish in a bucket. My group size was similar to that of a day shoot! Fantastic capability IMHO.

The second best part was going through the shoot house in two man teams. Clearing rooms with another person is not something many of use Civy's get to do (in the dark with live fire). Not only are you worried about accidentially shooting your partner, but making sure you get good hits on the bad guys and leaving the good guys untouched. This was harder than I thought and managed to kill some targets that I shouldn't have.

Then again, they were in the same room with the bad guys so they were guilty as far as I am concerned.

All of my gear ran just fine less a hammer spring. Flashlights used were the SF X200B, SF M3, custom SF M600A and G2 with CREE LED and the light saver strobing tailcap (good combo).

Recommendations to future class attendees:

1. Attend a Basic Carbine School
2. Attend a Basic Pistol School
3. 6V weaponlight mounted on carbine
4. 6V weaponlight mounted on pistol
5. 6V handheld light
6. Two point sling
7. Aimpoint or EOTech Optic

Funniest quote I heard from LAV: "Dude, the night fighting capability of your gun is so bad that I am thinking of crushing up some lightning bugs and putting them on your front sight post."

I think I wet myself when I heard this.

C4

**Sam** · 05-14-07, 14:55

Originally Posted by CarlosDJackal

NOTE: Did you know that the Vickers sling was named after the same guy to whom the Vickers scoring system was named after?

Yeah, back in 2000, we held our first IDPA state championship match and I was an SO at a stage. The first group of shooters of that cool October morning that waited to shoot my stage were listening to me brief them on the course of fire, as a briefed them on the type of scoring system, the man that designed the system was among that crowd waiting to shoot.

He was the first shooter I ran that day, and ended up as the match winner.

**Joe Mamma** · 05-14-07, 16:40

Originally Posted by C4IGrant

Recommendations to future class attendees:

1. Attend a Basic Carbine School
2. Attend a Basic Pistol School
3. 6V weaponlight mounted on carbine
4. 6V weaponlight mounted on pistol
5. 6V handheld light
6. Two point sling
7. Aimpoint or EOTech Optic

C4

That's too bad because my weapon lights are on a shotgun and pistols.

My carbine is an AK which doesn't take a light easily. But, I would love to take this class.

Joe Mamma

**C4IGrant** · 05-14-07, 16:53

Originally Posted by Joe Mamma

That's too bad because my weapon lights are on a shotgun and pistols.

My carbine is an AK which doesn't take a light easily. But, I would love to take this class.

Joe Mamma

Your on M4C and don't own an AR???

C4

**NCPatrolAR** · 05-14-07, 17:02

I'm toying with the idea of doing the September class with an AK.

**CarlosDJackal** · 05-14-07, 17:10

Originally Posted by Joe Mamma

That's too bad because my weapon lights are on a shotgun and pistols.

My carbine is an AK which doesn't take a light easily. But, I would love to take this class.

Joe Mamma

Look into the different rail options for AKs. I would not recommend attending this course without a weaponslight on your carbine. You can do fine without one on your pistol though. I also highly recommend a good reflex sight on your carbine. JM2CW.