Be an informed consumer!

[Honorthecall81]

I went Daniel Defense and never looked back.
Ok.. I ocasionally look over my shoulder to take
a quick peak at that PWS mk114 lol

[Tact.medic]

Good info, thank you very much for contributing. Many of us just get gun crazy and want to buy the first thing we see, then there are those who just want a cheap gun

[Tedfs]

As someone who's torn things apart and put them back together just to see how they work since childhood, information like this is nice to see.

While I'm sure you have to at least be a manufacturer and sign and an NDA (plus other legal requirements), it would be nice if someone could
view the TDP with a simple NDA. Something about being sued for everything you own and possibly jailed has kept me in compliance with
several NDAs over the past 20 years.

The science and specs behind the TDP would be very cool to understand as a whole. Thank you for an informative thread.

[MiamiSniper]

great post, thanks...

[TrenchArtisan]

I agree that just because something isn't "mil-spec" does not mean it is junk. You MUST prove though that it is superior to the mil-standard though. This is often hard to do.

Being new here, one thing that I already like about this forum is the emphasis that is placed on truly scientific evaluation versus anecdotal 'evidence'. That being said, how would one actually do this outside of military testing?

[C4IGrant]

Being new here, one thing that I already like about this forum is the emphasis that is placed on truly scientific evaluation versus anecdotal 'evidence'. That being said, how would one actually do this outside of military testing?

Have deep pockets and know what the .Mil test procedures look like.


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[Civil]

This is a very informative thread and I thank you. I've just gotten interested in the AR-15 platform and wanted a well tested and meets all MilSpec; have been doing some small research and have narrowed my decision down to three manufacturers and rifles: the LWRC M6 IC, BCM M4 Mod 2, and Knight's Armament SR-16. And since I'm on a budget, I've decided for the BCM M4, but I'm not going to purchase it right off the bat before I do some more research on the mechanical parts and gas pistons (my preference)...

I have many questions that I cannot think of but one. After looking and learning from BCM's version of their "fact" sheets and the requirements for military standards, if I were to invest on a rifle with a different manufacturer would I have to request that kind of information to make sure that my rifle is MilSpec unlike BCMs?

[C4IGrant]

This is a very informative thread and I thank you. I've just gotten interested in the AR-15 platform and wanted a well tested and meets all MilSpec; have been doing some small research and have narrowed my decision down to three manufacturers and rifles: the LWRC M6 IC, BCM M4 Mod 2, and Knight's Armament SR-16. And since I'm on a budget, I've decided for the BCM M4, but I'm not going to purchase it right off the bat before I do some more research on the mechanical parts and gas pistons (my preference)...

I have many questions that I cannot think of but one. After looking and learning from BCM's version of their "fact" sheets and the requirements for military standards, if I were to invest on a rifle with a different manufacturer would I have to request that kind of information to make sure that my rifle is MilSpec unlike BCMs?

To most manufacturers, the term "mil-spec" simply means that you can take their parts and they will fit in say a Colt. So the question to ask a company is if they follow the TDP.

In regards to needing a piston, read Larry Vickers comments in his SME on this subject.



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[ajacobs]

I guess I am having a little problem understanding the TDP and how that applies to the consumer for our purchases and comparing products.

I understand that it is the minimum acceptable military standard. I understand that it is a propriety set of material specifications, schematics for design and testing procedures. I understand that it evolves.

I understand that some aspects of it are common knowledge such as bolt and barrel steel.

Since the TDP is not public knowledge how do we know a rifle is built to it?

I also understand that just because it is different than the TDP, doesn't mean it is worse. It could be better of just different.

In the case of many manufactures it is worse (they are maximizing profit) and uniformed consumers don't realize any different.

In other manufactures they may just be making things different to meet different needs or making things better. Examples might include things like the "double thick chrome lining" or maybe a lower with a built in trigger guard.

Correct me if I am wrong then, but this boils down to:

Ask a manufacture if the meet the TDP - but you have to trust them because there is no way to be sure.

Ask them where and how they vary from the TDP and why.

Evaluate their answers to the previous question and make a decision if that is in fact an improvement over the TDP. Which clearly may be outside of my skill set.

Since it is outside of my skill set, TDP is proprietary information, and it is the minimum standard, doesn't that leave me with trusting the collective experience of other informed shooters on boards such as this and trusting the manufacture?

Is the TDP only relevant for things that are not up for debate? Examples such as do they HPT, MPI, shoot peen etc. Things like barrel steel etc are not relevant if it meets the TDP as they may be using something better?

Does the TDP cover everything? For example, I assume a 6920 doesn't meet the TDP as it is semi auto. Is there a TDP section that covers the charging handle for example? And therefore what many would consider an upgrade of a BCM charging handle doesn't meet the TDP?

Given that example I don't know if other than design changes the BCM charging handle meets other aspects of the TDP, for example is it made out of the right material? It isn't anything I stress about don't get me wrong. I have had great success with the BCM charging handle and don't think I have ever heard a disparaging word about them - isn't that more relevant than the TDP.

Sorry for all the questions I am just trying to wrap my head around the relevance of the TDP.

[C4IGrant]

I guess I am having a little problem understanding the TDP and how that applies to the consumer for our purchases and comparing products.

I understand that it is the minimum acceptable military standard. I understand that it is a propriety set of material specifications, schematics for design and testing procedures. I understand that it evolves.

A better way to look at it as A Standard.

I understand that some aspects of it are common knowledge such as bolt and barrel steel.

Since the TDP is not public knowledge how do we know a rifle is built to it?

There are lots of black copies roaming around. The TDP is a living document though so it does get updated.

Does the TDP cover everything? For example, I assume a 6920 doesn't meet the TDP as it is semi auto. Is there a TDP section that covers the charging handle for example? And therefore what many would consider an upgrade of a BCM charging handle doesn't meet the TDP?

Yes, it covers EVERYTHING for the M4 and M16. With that said, I would not get too excited about a charging handle not being EXACTLY like the one Colt uses. Certain things in the TDP are to be followed and others are simply personal opinion. The key is to know the difference between the two.




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