The Commandant has doubts about replacing SAW with HK M27 IAR

[variablebinary]

Seems like the concerns everyone had from day one have trickled up to the top.

http://marinecorpstimes.com/news/201...e_IAR_070110w/

Is an automatic rifle up to the task of replacing a belt fed reign of terror? Belt fed weapons are scary as shit when you are on the wrong end of them.

Conway eyes additional testing for auto-rifle
By Dan Lamothe - Staff writer
Posted : Monday Jul 5, 2010 10:21:21 EDT
Commandant Gen. James Conway has given Marine acquisitions officials approval to buy hundreds of 5.56mm infantry automatic rifles, Marine officials said, but it still isn’t assured the weapon will be widely fielded.

The Corps will purchase 450 auto-rifles, now known as M27s, officials said. The weapon could reach a few infantry battalions beginning this fall, providing the IAR program a chance to prove to Conway that it is ready to be widely fielded as a replacement for the 5.56mm M249 squad automatic weapon, which has been in use since the 1980s.

The decision does not mean that the commandant will definitely sign off on the purchase of 4,100 IARs that acquisitions officials have eyed to replace the SAW in many infantry formations, said Capt. Geraldine Carey, a spokeswoman with Marine Corps Systems Command, based at Marine Corps Base Quantico, Va. The general is concerned that the auto-rifle doesn’t have enough firepower to replace the SAW, which can carry a 200-round drum of linked ammunition. The M27 — known commercially as a variant of Heckler & Koch’s HK416 — is designed to carry a 30-round magazine, although the Corps is also considering a high-capacity magazine that could carry 50 or 100 rounds.

Conway said in December that he was not convinced that replacing the SAW with a smaller weapon is a good idea because the M249 allows Marines to establish fire superiority in a firefight, forcing attackers to take cover.

“Let’s… talk about suppression and the psychology of a small unit fight, that says that the other guy’s got a light machine gun and I’ve got an automatic rifle,” he said. “I’m going to be hard-pressed to get fire superiority over him, you know, to keep his head down instead of him keeping mine down, because that 200-round magazine just keeps on giving.”

In April, acquisitions officials said the Corps could field large quantities of the IAR, but only if the commandant is convinced it’s a good idea. Marine officials hoped “to get a full-rate production decision” once the results were reviewed by Conway, said Col. Andrew Bianca, head of infantry weapons acquisition at SysCom.

“One of the big things that we’ve been doing — and most of you have probably read about it — is the infantry automatic rifle,” he told the group, gathered April 6 at SysCom’s 2010 Advanced Planning Brief to Industry. “It’s a look at going back to the true automatic rifle and replacing the [M249] squad automatic weapon within the infantry squads and the light-armored reconnaissance scout teams.”

Marine officials are reviewing Heckler & Koch’s IAR after selecting it as its preferred option in October and ordering 24 additional weapons for testing. It beat out three other finalists, including two models from Colt Defense LLC, maker of the M4 carbine, and one from FN Herstal, maker of the SAW. The H&K model is a variant of its HK416 assault rifle, which uses a spring-buffered short-stroke gas piston system, and was the sole finalist that fires only from the closed-bolt position.

[Failure2Stop]

Is an automatic rifle up to the task of replacing a belt fed reign of terror? Belt fed weapons are scary as shit when you are on the wrong end of them.

1-It is not a replacement. It is a billet weapon replacement. The M249 will still be available for occasions where a light machinegun is necessary.

2- It doesn't matter what device is accelerating the little bit of metal that are directed at you: suppression is a tactic- I can suppress someone with a Red-Rider if that's all I have. Falling back on the suppression piece and on-gun ammo availability is really just another way of embracing high-volume fire with low-percent hit rates.
What's more effective at unbalancing a fight: missing a bunch or dropping threats? Before everyone spouts off about suppression, it might be a good idea to actually know what it is and how it is developed.

3- Gen Conway is on his way out, so while his opinion carries weight, it is a matter for Gen Amos to pick-up. I would also remind the readership that just because the guy is a General or the Commandant does not mean that he is an expert in small arms: he also said that the M4 is not applicable to the infantry.

[JSantoro]

1-It is not a replacement. It is a billet weapon replacement. The M249 will still be available for occasions where a light machinegun is necessary.

To reinforce this, I'll reiterate in different words for the LOS-logic-impaired......

-The SAW isn't going away.

-The SAW isn't leaving the USMC inventory.

-The SAW will remain in the USMC inventory.

-The SAW will be available for USMC warfighter use.

-Ammo for the SAW will be available for use in the SAW (I know, that's just crazy!).

-USMC warfighters will be allowed to take SAW ammo, put it in the SAW, point the SAW at booger-eaters, and use said ammo to encourage them to leave or lay down and bleed for a while.

I don't get what's so difficult to understand about this, and why folks seem to forget that the SAW is not I say again NOT the only belt-fed weapon in the inventory. The SAW is particularly not the belt-fed that's carrying the weight of the engagements warfighters are getting in; do some research.

If you think the JamMaster 5000 is still the center of gravity of the fights we're in, I don't know who's sig-event sheets you're looking at, but they're not the American ones.

How many other "Instant Mountain: Just Add Water to Molehill!! As Seen on TV!!" topics can we come up with?

[Rated21R]

I think that answers that.

[JSantoro]

Corps' getting the M110, too. I await with bated breath...

...the slough of articles about how it's going to "replace" the M40A5 (also not going anywhere, BTW, before the grist-mill of innerweb rumor starts grinding away), the DARPA rifle, penicillin, remove warts and make espresso, based on the statements of somebody who's leaving his twilight posting and can say whatever the hell he wants to with little or no repercussion.

We can presume to do analysis on the most recent written thing about Weapon X in regard to impact on the battlefield, but remain blithely uncognizant of current events regarding the source of the statements or deliberately fail to factor them in to said analysis. Not sure which this was. Irrelevant.

Critical thought processes = Not for everyone.

[az doug]

I am just trying to figure out what the USMC is gaining with the HK M27 IAR that they do not already have with the M-16. I understand the M-27 has a barrel length of 16.5 inches. An M-4 has a 14.5 and an M-16 has a 20 inch. Is it the piston system they want? I am interested in hearing others perspectives on the advantages of the HK M27, not over the SAW, but the M-16.

I have some, not a lot, of experience with the 416. A few very good friends and fellow instructors are issued 416s. Most of my opinion is based on their input. To date the 416 has not lived up to its hype and HK has not been receptive to the issue, which is the gun functioning with their duty ammo. (Federal 55 gr hp)

Does the M27 have an MG barrel that will tolerate sustained fire better than the M4 or M16?

[variablebinary]

2- It doesn't matter what device is accelerating the little bit of metal that are directed at you: suppression is a tactic- I can suppress someone with a Red-Rider if that's all I have. Falling back on the suppression piece and on-gun ammo availability is really just another way of embracing high-volume fire with low-percent hit rates.
What's more effective at unbalancing a fight: missing a bunch or dropping threats? Before everyone spouts off about suppression, it might be a good idea to actually know what it is and how it is developed.

You don't think both a high volume of fire and marksmanship both have the capacity to control movement, produce high causalities and deter aggression, acting as force multipliers?

A good example being M60's helping thwart the tactics of General Nguyen Huu An, and the precision of Marine Sgt. John Ethan Place in Fallujah.

Also, what role do you envision is the M27 playing in a fire team?

[JSantoro]

I am interested in hearing others perspectives on the advantages of the HK M27, not over the SAW, but the M-16.
This has been done to death in innumerable "DI vs. piston" and related threads. Use the Search feature.
...

Does the M27 have an MG barrel that will tolerate sustained fire better than the M4 or M16?

Not sure if I'd call it a heavy MG barrel (since it's NOT a MG), but it's not the usual USG contour. It is heaviER, and does just ducky under sustained fire.

The role of the M27, in the fire team and the squad and the platoon and the company and the battalion, etc. is that of the Automatic Rifle...hence the name. It's not the same as that of a light machinegun, which is what has been pressed into service to fulfill the Automatic Rifleman role for the last 30 years or so. Square peg/round hole. We're finally getting back to a true Automatic Rifleman capability. If that's confusing to some, harken back to the days of the BAR.

That thing had 20rnd box magazines, which had to be carried, and the dudes loved that thing (just not having to carry it and the spare ammo; the more things change, the more they stay the same, EVERYBODY hates carrying shit), so I don't get why folks somehow think that the IAR can't fulfill it's designed role with magazines currently fielded that carry 10 rounds more that the old BAR, which did it just fine and was loved by the GIs of that era. It's pretty silly, quite frankly, once you stop thinking of the SAW as having fit the Auto Rifleman role when it most certainly did not. The IAR equates to a correction to what was a flawed doctrinal outlook at the time of the SAW getting picked up, by dudes still worried about a Fulda Gap scenario.

To frame it in other terms, look at it from this angle: No more waiting on the SAW gunner to be the last guy to get up ALL the time, or getting hung up in tight spaces because his ammo sources are so much bulkier. Less concentrated weight for him to carry, which has never been anything but more awkward than that of a rifleman even if their loads ended up being the same weight.

The advantages and potential advantages are staggering, if one is willing to step past the "But but but it's not a SAW!" mode of thought (and the closely-related "SAW was good enough for me in those days" lunacy, like those dinosaurs still around that thing that iron sights are the ONLY way to fly for EVERYBODY) and look at the thing as it's own weapon. SAW's going back to the role it was actually designed for, which is that of a LMG and not an AR.

[87GN]

Gen. Conway said that the M4 was "an extension of the pistol, not a reduction of the rifle" - never mind that it is literally a reduction of the rifle - so I will take what he has to say on the topic of small arms with a grain of salt (or two).

Gen. Amos, from what I have heard through unreliable sources (news media), was selected for political reasons: the likelihood that he wouldn't oppose DADT going away, and the likelihood that he wouldn't be opposed to budget cuts. The latter wouldn't seem to have a positive effect on the adoption of a new weapons system.

As far as the IAR goes, beyond everything that has already been discussed, it might drive home the point with the average non-IAR equipped 0311 that he is carrying a rifle, not an automatic rifle or a LMG, which would be a good thing as far as training and doctrine are concerned.

[montrala]

Not sure if I'd call it a heavy MG barrel (since it's NOT a MG), but it's not the usual USG contour. It is heaviER, and does just ducky under sustained fire.

It is very dense, cold hammer forged barrel (that means more mass in same dimension - so can soak more heat than classic barrel of sime size) that is 1" thick from extension to gas block and 0.750" from gas block to muzzle. This is same barrel that HK uses for civilian version of 416 -> MR223 (MR like Match Rifle). It is of course not same as quick change LMG/MG barrels but (as tests prooved) surpasses needs of IAR for sustained fire.