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Thread: 38 Super

  1. #1
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    38 Super

    Anybody have any information on this caliber? I'm having a debate about this caliber with a guy at work. He claims it's one of the best calibers ever developed by man and that it exceeds the 357 mag and even the 45 in ballistic effectiveness. He also claims that the only round that comes close are the 357 Sig and the 40SW. True? I've never heard of or seen a 38 super.

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    https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread...ighlight=Super

    https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread...ighlight=Super

    https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread...ighlight=Super


    Neat cartridge, but will never be more than a niche chambering in the future.

    I sure as hell wouldn't want to be shot with one.

    The .357 SIG will do pretty much whatever a .38 Super will do, practically speaking, and is available in high capacity modern semi autos.
    Employee of colonialshooting.com

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    In almost all factory ammo a 9mm in +P or +P+ is running at greater velocity, and pushing better bullets, and available in a wide variety of guns that have a proven track record. These guns are either more compact for carry, or available in higher capacity service sized guns.

    A Commander in .38Super has got nothing at all on a Glock 34 loaded with +P ammo, except looks perhaps.

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    For over a quarter of a century I have been a big fan of the .38 Super. It is indeed a great cartridge, with a great history.

    It has been handicapped over the years by the silly semi-rim that John M. Browning used on its predecessor, the .38 ACP. As soon as JMB saw an example of Kaiser Bill's 9mm cartridge, he too started head spacing his cartridges on the case mouth, instead of the sill semi-rim.

    The .38 Super is not loaded any where near its potential by the manufacturers. Neither is the 9x23mm Winchester, the cartridge truly greater than the .38 Super.

    I still like the .38 Super, possibly just because I like to be different. Since I prefer the 1911 type platform, it is superior for my purposes to the 9x19mm.

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    I load my 38 Super with a 124gr. CMJ at 1450 fps. So...doing the math, that's 179.8 PF.

    From Cor-Bon ('cause who loads hotter than Corbon?):
    Self Defense: 110gr @ 1500fps (165.0 PF)
    DPX: 125gr @ 1300fps (162.5 PF)
    Powerball: 100gr @ 1400fps (140 PF)

    So...yeah...it can easily have more energy than a 357 Magnum (and in turn 9mm).

    Rich
    "Pressure is what you feel when you don't know what you're doing." - Chuck Knox

    For those that say USPSA/IPSC/3-Gun isn't tactical...speed is a tactic!

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    9X23 - the thinking man's 38 Super (unfortunately, thinkers are in short supply!).
    The Super is a great cartridge that has gotten short shrift since WW2.

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    9x23 failed for multiple reasons, not the least of which it does nothing that 38 Super can't already do.

    Rich
    "Pressure is what you feel when you don't know what you're doing." - Chuck Knox

    For those that say USPSA/IPSC/3-Gun isn't tactical...speed is a tactic!

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    Quote Originally Posted by uscbigdawg View Post
    9x23 failed for multiple reasons, not the least of which it does nothing that 38 Super can't already do.

    Rich
    Well, the 9X23 can safely do 100-150 FPS more than the Super within Saami pressure limits - that's something isn't it?
    I'm betting your 124gr. CMJ at 1450 fps is a wee bit beyond the pressure standard for the Super. The 9X23 has the advantage of a much thicker case web & no rim to trip anything up.

    Don't know you, but that's a pretty ignorant response if you know anything about case design, web strength & pressure capabilites between the two cartridges.

    Other than that, I still love the 38 Super & I'm sorry I brought her prettier, smarter sister into the conversation.

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    I'm not a Materials Science Engineer, but do know that SAAMI specs only exist to account for the lowest common denominator of guns. So, in this case, a company can only generally produce ammunition and load data so that it's safe in Grandpa's 1920 pistol chambered in 38 Super.

    Modern guns, modern steel and modern engineering can easily and safely shoot the load to the above pressures and beyond.

    The 9x23 was semi-rimmed (IIRC), which made it no better than the 38 Super with regards to magazine capacity. It was a tapered case (like the 9mm) that didn't solve any problems that recognizing that 1911's like rounds loaded as close to 45 ACP as you can to reduce the entrance angle from the mag into the chamber to increase reliability/ease of feeding.

    9x23 is advertised as being able to handle more pressure than a 38 Super and ammo manufacturer (singular) loaded them warmer than their 38 Super ammo because of the above (lowest common denominator) and in the case of the 9x23, there was 1 gun chambered for it at its inception and it benefited from modern steel & engineering.

    We can go on and on about the love affair that Winchester and the gun rags had with the 9x23, but the fact remains it failed for multiple reasons and was NEVER a popular choice in competition circles because it didn't do anything that the 38 Super (a very accurate, and affordable caliber) already did. Some other reasons:

    - One firearm chambered in it available to the public (Colt Series 80)
    - One (major) ammunition manufacturer (Winchester)
    - Little to no brass availability on the reloading market until Starline started making it
    - Bullet variety? Nope...same as the 9mm, 9x21 & 38 Super
    - Flatter shooting? Nope. No different than 9x21, 356 TSW, 9x25 & 38 Super
    - Cache of a different caliber? Possibly, but 356 TSW and 9x25 won out for "wow" factor

    The thread is about the 38 Super and I'm speaking from my experience with it. I find it to be an exceedingly versatile caliber that some can use download for plinkin' all the way to hot rodding it for competition and/or defensive loads. Does that mean that other calibers can't do it? Nope. Just saying that this thread is titled, "38 Super" and the OP asked for information about IT not about 9x23.

    Rich
    Last edited by uscbigdawg; 08-11-10 at 09:02.
    "Pressure is what you feel when you don't know what you're doing." - Chuck Knox

    For those that say USPSA/IPSC/3-Gun isn't tactical...speed is a tactic!

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by uscbigdawg View Post
    I'm not a Materials Science Engineer, but do know that SAAMI specs only exist to account for the lowest common denominator of guns. So, in this case, a company can only generally produce ammunition and load data so that it's safe in Grandpa's 1920 pistol chambered in 38 Super.

    Modern guns, modern steel and modern engineering can easily and safely shoot the load to the above pressures and beyond.

    The 9x23 was semi-rimmed (IIRC), which made it no better than the 38 Super with regards to magazine capacity. It was a tapered case (like the 9mm) that didn't solve any problems that recognizing that 1911's like rounds loaded as close to 45 ACP as you can to reduce the entrance angle from the mag into the chamber to increase reliability/ease of feeding.

    9x23 is advertised as being able to handle more pressure than a 38 Super and ammo manufacturer (singular) loaded them warmer than their 38 Super ammo because of the above (lowest common denominator) and in the case of the 9x23, there was 1 gun chambered for it at its inception and it benefited from modern steel & engineering.

    We can go on and on about the love affair that Winchester and the gun rags had with the 9x23, but the fact remains it failed for multiple reasons and was NEVER a popular choice in competition circles because it didn't do anything that the 38 Super (a very accurate, and affordable caliber) already did. Some other reasons:

    - One firearm chambered in it available to the public (Colt Series 80)
    - One (major) ammunition manufacturer (Winchester)
    - Little to no brass availability on the reloading market until Starline started making it
    - Bullet variety? Nope...same as the 9mm, 9x21 & 38 Super
    - Flatter shooting? Nope. No different than 9x21, 356 TSW, 9x25 & 38 Super
    - Cache of a different caliber? Possibly, but 356 TSW and 9x25 won out for "wow" factor

    The thread is about the 38 Super and I'm speaking from my experience with it. I find it to be an exceedingly versatile caliber that some can use download for plinkin' all the way to hot rodding it for competition and/or defensive loads. Does that mean that other calibers can't do it? Nope. Just saying that this thread is titled, "38 Super" and the OP asked for information about IT not about 9x23.

    Rich

    I think a little more reading on the 9x23 and its development is required. Does the 9x23 have better terminal ballistics, probably not since 9mm bullets aren't designed for the velocity it can produce. Pretty much the same as 40vs10mm.
    Last edited by Corse; 08-11-10 at 10:06. Reason: additional comment

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