+P in .45, is it needed?

[CQC.45]

Im looking between the 230gr. HST (+P vs. standard pressure) rounds and trying to decide if the +P is needed or not. I would really like to hear from Doc GKR, but anyone who has any opinions is more than welcome. Thanks in advance for the help.

[jstephens202]

Im looking between the 230gr. HST (+P vs. standard pressure) rounds and trying to decide if the +P is needed or not. I would really like to hear from Doc GKR, but anyone who has any opinions is more than welcome. Thanks in advance for the help.

CQC, our dept. issues the +P version. While we haven't had any incidents requiring using them on people(and hopefully won't) we have used them on injured animals like deer and one elk. They have worked just fine on them and on the feral dogs and coyotes we have around here. The stuff seems to knock all of them out somewhat quicker then non+P loads, but nothing scientific to prove it. What the 'net says is that the +P load is rougher on guns. We use it to qualify with, 100 rds per gun, and thus far haven't seen any undue wear and tear.
All that being said, I don't think you really need (nor do we) the +P. I would be happy with any 230 JHP, but the HST really seems to do the best, for us.....

[Entropy]

+P seems to give a measurable improvement in barrier penetration, and overall deeper tissue/bone penetration. It also seems to make for more reliable expansion in substances that plug up hollow point such as wood. Here's some numbers from Winchester Ranger Talons:

.45acp 230gr(905fps):
Bare Gel(Penetration/Expansion): 11.6"/.75"
Through Denim(Penetration/Expansion): 12.7"/.72"
Through Heavy Clothing(Penetration/Expansion): 12.3"/.75"
Through Wallboard(Penetration/Expansion): 15.2"/.69"
Through Plywood(Penetration/Expansion): 18"/.45"
Through Steel(Penetration/Expansion): 16.5"/.53"
Through AutoGlass(Penetration/Expansion): 12"/.58"

.45acp 230gr+P(990fps):
Bare Gel(Penetration/Expansion): 13.2"/.79"
Through Denim(Penetration/Expansion): 15.2"/.78"
Through Heavy Clothing(Penetration/Expansion): 15.7"/.79"
Through Wallboard(Penetration/Expansion): 13.8"/.75"
Through Plywood(Penetration/Expansion): 14.6"/.77"
Through Steel(Penetration/Expansion): 20.6"/.53"
Through AutoGlass(Penetration/Expansion): 13.6"/.60"


I prefer to use higher velocity, or +P in all of my calibers with a medium to heavy bullet weight. 124gr+P for 9mm, 165gr(1150fps) in .40, and 230gr+P for .45acp(better to side on the heavier bullet weight for better bullet sectional density). As long as you don't mind the extra recoil snap, and you shoot it well I think it could give you a measurable improvement in either barrier penetration, tissue/bone penetration, or both. It also depends on whether or not you are using a robust and durable pistol design to handle the harding recoiling loads. You'll also want to adhere to a strict armorer service schedule when you shoot a lot of +P stuff. Replacing springs, and other parts on schedule will keep the pistol reliable and keep it in service for a long time.

What .45acp do you use?

[DocGKR]

There is a logical and rational purpose for agencies to use +P .45 ACP ammo, as previously discussed back in 2003:

"We recently conducted testing that has revealed occasional failures of some lots of the standard pressure Winchester Ranger Talon 230 gr JHP RA45T to fully expand during 4 layer denim testing. According to one of the engineers who designed the Talon bullet, as the tooling which stamps the jacket notches dulls with use, the notches become too shallow and robust expansion is inhibited. With proper jacket notching, we have seen RA45T loads with velocities in the low 800-825 f/s range expand reliably through 4 layer denim testing; with shallow notches, we have seen RA45T loads with velocities in the high 850-875 f/s range fail to expand. When driven above 900-925 f/s, RA45T bullets almost always expand reliably through 4 layer denim testing. For example, the bullets from lot #31TF31, which failed to expand in denim when fired from a pistol, expanded normally during 4 layer denim testing when fired out of a 8.5" barrel M3A1 "Grease Gun".

Interestingly, the 230 gr JHP +P RA45TP has never had a failure to expand during our 4 layer denim testing, but it has occasionally exhibited signs of excess velocity, as shown by the expanded jacket beginning to fold back against the core. We have observed this same behavior when the standard pressure RA45T is fired out of .45 ACP SMG’s with 8.5” barrels, as bullet velocity is increased approximately 100 f/s over that observed from 4” to 5” pistol barrels. The RA45TP also has demonstrated a greater propensity for core-jacket separation when fired through automobile front windshield intermediate barriers compared to RA45T.

According to the folks at Winchester, the RA45T and RA45TP use the same bullet. The RA45TP is only slightly +P--only running 2000 psi higher pressure than the RA45T, which translates to approximately 50 f/s faster muzzle velocity and marginally greater perceived recoil; this slight velocity increase helps bullets with shallow jacket notching expand more reliably. I think all of our 1911 pistols are running with 18.5 lbs recoil springs. So far, we have actually had better functioning and reliability with the +P load, especially with dirty pistols.

Bottom line: the .45 ACP +P RA45TP offers more reliable expansion during 4 layer denim testing that the standard pressure RA45T, although it has slightly greater tendency to exhibit core-jacket separation when fired through automobile windows.

While I am still carrying RA45T lots of known terminal performance, I suspect RA45TP may be a better option for agencies that do not routinely test their ammunition purchases, especially since it has only 2000 psi greater pressure than standard RA45T. For this reason, at least one large agency (1600+ officers) in this area is transitioning to the RA45TP."

Note: Since the above was written in 2003, I have switched to using the Federal HST +P JHP (P45HST1) for duty/carry and standard pressure 230 gr FMJ for practice.

It is very important to be aware that .45 ACP +P loadings can cause increased wear on pistols. Keep the +P pressures at the lower end of the spectrum (875-925 fps for a 230 gr bullet fired from a 5” barrel) and increased pistol wear is not a significant issue. Unfortunately, with the erroneous idea that faster is better, many of the .45 ACP +P 230 gr loadings seem to be running hotter these days than they originally did--loads at the hotter end of the pressure range (925-975 fps for a 230 gr bullet fired from a 5” barrel) are not uncommon. High pressures like this will accelerate wear and cause damage to pistols, particularly 1911's.

I would STRONGLY suggest that agencies purchasing large quantities of ammo should specify in the contract the velocity range (along with terminal performance standards) they will accept--if the average velocity (as well as performance parameters) is outside that allowed by the contract, then they should reject the entire lot of ammo and make the vendor replace it with ammo that meets the required specification.

Personally I am quite satisfied running .45 ACP +P JHP's at velocities up to 925 fps out of a 5" barrel; I would NOT choose to use loads running hotter than this...

[mikeross506]

Just an idle thought....How significant is the increase in felt recoil and muzzle rise when comparing traditional and +P?

[DocGKR]

I don't notice that much difference. On the range the other day, we were running mags randomly loaded with P45HST1 and P45HST2 both in 1911's and M&P45's. The +P load was slightly stiffer in felt recoil, but not objectionably so; certainly not enough to cause any issues or significant changes in split times.

[kmrtnsn]

I just picked up a 4506, does anyone have any recommendations for +P; Spring? Any other recommended mods?

[mikeross506]

I don't notice that much difference. On the range the other day, we were running mags randomly loaded with P45HST1 and P45HST2 both in 1911's and M&P45's. The +P load was slightly stiffer in felt recoil, but not objectionably so; certainly not enough to cause any issues or significant changes in split times.

Thanks. That was the only reservation I've ever had with running +P thru my XDM. Next box I buy will be +P

[rsilvers]

It would seem like a short barrel, such as a Glock 36, could use +P to restore some of the lost velocity - whereas a full-size 5 inch pistol has less need for +P.

[Shawn.L]

I don't notice that much difference. On the range the other day, we were running mags randomly loaded with P45HST1 and P45HST2 both in 1911's and M&P45's. The +P load was slightly stiffer in felt recoil, but not objectionably so; certainly not enough to cause any issues or significant changes in split times.

how many fps are you seeing out of the HST 230+P ?